Tanins... tea or spawning elixer?

[tjudy]

:?

Ever notice that if you ignore some fish for long enough they get mad and spawn?

I have been playing around with some local mesquite 'driftwood' (I am in Arizona), and have big chunk that has a tunnel right through the middle of the chunk. The tunnel is about 20 cm long and about 2-3 cm in diameter. I tied some anubias to it and put it in a twenty high with a pair of Pel. sub. 'matadi'.

I soaked that chunk for nearly three weeks, and when I put it in the tank with softer water, you would have thought I poured in brown ink :x . The water is so dark you can hardly see the plants on the wood!

The fish are impossible to see, of course; so I basically forgot about them for a couple weeks. Water change time today... 8O fry 8O ... lots of fry. More than I have seen from this pair before. I picked up the chunk and they and Mom came pouring out of the 'tunnel'.

I have never been a big fan of tanins... but these fish sure seem to be :lol: .

 

[Randall]

Black Water

Dear Ted,

With all that wonderful mesquite wood around, why not specialize in black water fish? With your P. subocellatus success story, have you considered trying your hand at some of the wild black water Betta species? Please check out some of the mouthbrooding species. I guarantee you'll love it!

All the best,

Randall Kohn

 

[Orchid]

I am a big fan of tannins and other things that are "as" natural as an aquarist can possible make them. I mean, if you think about it, these fish have existed in these black waters for thousands of their generations. After a time, their little bodies develop tendencies to gain benefit from the water. How I don't know, if I were a research biologist I would probably study this. A species doesn't exist for thousands of generations in an environment without adapting to gain the best benefits from that niche.

No, these fish may not have specialized to absolutely require this water and some black water may be slightly different than others, but I bet if you did an organic analysis of these waters, there will be some similarities in their molecular make up. Besides, thousands of generations in one environment can't dismiss the "few" generations some of these fish spend in our tanks.

Sometimes I suspect some aquarists don't like it because it resembles a dirty tank, but, hey, if the fish are happilly doing their thing, then why not offer it for them. Even if it is just a comfort thing for them.

 

[tjudy]

The only rason I do not like it is because I cannot see the back of the tank!!

:lol:

 

[farm41]

My WC A. panduro's never did a thing until I started mixing the RO water with peat treated water. Now I have about 30 fry. The peat treated water isn't that dark though, I can still see the back of the tank longways. If that's what it takes, then I don't mind so much.

 

[tjudy]

This piece of mesquite seems to release a lot more tanins that the tropical wood I use in other tanks. About the 'worst' tanin producer, IMO, is the 'malaysia' driftwood. I have a 20 gallon tank with malaysia wood that is still yellow going on 6 months now. This mesquite's tanins are amazing. Admittedly, there is only a 20 watt bulb over the tank, but the tanins are so dark you cannot see the heater on the back wall.

The Anubias barterii var. caladifolia seems to like it. The root growth is significant and the plants (two of them) have each added two leaves in just about a month. I am going to pull fry today and do a water change. I will snap a clear picture of the piece.

 

[Neil]

Since I stated breeding Apistogramma, I have always thought that tannins were significant. I am not sure how significant, but it seemed that I was breeding fish without too much trouble that others were having difficulty with. Unfortunately, I am not meticulous about the particulars of what I am doing. I usually put a little of this in with a little of that and top it off with a pinch whatchamacallit for good measure. Kind of an artistic approach to breeding. :roll: So I can' t be sure that it was 50% water changes 3 days in a row, or heavy feeding of live food, or blackwater extract, or acid buffer, or adding another male from the species as a target, etc. or luck. But, I do think that it has benefits and I don't necessarily think they are restricted to blackwater species. However, Orchid definitely makes a good point.
An interesting side note that really got me hooked on this comes from the late well-known aquarist and breeder, Al Castro. He was talking about how a group some decades ago were trying to figure out how to breed some tetra (can't remember which). But no one had done it. Over a conversation they were having about all the stuff that they tried and all the stuff that they were going to try, Al accidentally spilled a cup of coffee into the aquarium that he had set his cup on. That was the tank that had the tetra in it. In somewhat of a panic, they rush to get the equipment together to beginning emptying the tank (probably buckets and a manual siphon). By the time that they began the process they noticed that the already well-conditioned fish had begun swimming erratically. Several females were dropping eggs and males were fertilizing them. 8O
Whether this story was completely accurate or not is irrelevant, because it was important to me in my understanding of the varied nature of breeding fish. You use what works and, if you haven't found what works, you try something new. If you need a break, have a cup of coffee and set it down on the tank with the fish that are giving you trouble!
Neil

 

[tjudy]

Al Castro is (I never use past tense ) an amazing fish breeder. I had heard that story too...

I tried the shortcut approach and just dropped in a no-doze... :lol:

 

[R-S]

I too have found tannins to be useful, though by accident. One of my favorite tanks is a dwarf coryadora tank in which for months after adding new wood the pygmies spawned repeatedly. Tanins finally cleared, and though I had kept doing what I thought was the trigger (live foods, temperature and water changes timed with barometeric pressue changes) and added young new stock to the colony, they have not spawned again. I'm thinking I'd like a chunk of leaching mesquite to urge them on again!

 

[Orchid]

Recipe for making your own blackwater

Hey, does anyone have a recipe for making their own black water? I live in So. Oregon, so I do not have any access to mesquite, but I have a bunch of sphagnum peat moss and access to other moss I use for my orchids.

I can't think of any native wood that I could use as driftwood. Besides the softwoods of pine, Doug fir, and cedar, I have hard woods of black and white oak, manzanita, madrone, and other lesser sized shrubs. I think the oak would break down far too fast underwater, I've used it for orchid baskets, they get wet or stay wet and seem to not fare as well as some of the other woods, but that is a different situation than driftwood.
Anyway, if someone has a method they use, I'd be much abliged if they can tell me how to make gallons of it.

 

[Randall]

Recipe for Black Water

Dear Chris,

Here's a good recipe for black water:

Fill holding vessel with water, add peat moss or sphagnum, stir, wait two days and use.

It's really that simple. You can use the conditioned water do to your water changes. That way the fish are introduced to the treated water slowly over time and don't suffer from stress.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Orchid]

He-he, the recipe reminds me of making a really big cup of tea.:lol: Tea Party anyone?

Thanks Randall, I am filling up my RO freshwater container as we speak, I can't wait to get black water.

 

[aspen]

hey orchid, get out there and collect some oak leaves. these work well too, from what i've heard. hope you're not too late.

rick

 

[farm41]

That's what I'm getting ready to do, we have lot's of oak leaves here right now. Free to, if anybody wants any, just come over and grab a rake. :wink:

 

[aspen]

yea, i have ladder too, my eaves-troughs need cleaning. :?

rick

 

[Neil]

Tetras Blackwater Extract is listed as a "spawning aid", so they would put their vote in for spawning elixer! The ingredients on the bottle are:
Vitamins B2,6, and 12
Nicotinic amide
Panthenol
Biotin
Peat extract

I would be curious about what elements are in leeched tannins from wood and leaves.
Neil

 

[Randall]

Black Water Extracts

When first keeping South American dwarf cichlids, I used two differant brands of black water extract regulary, because I'd read that some of my fish were from black water biotopes. I did this in an effort to simulate my fishes' natural habitat and to induce spawning.

When using the Tetra brand in a 55-gallon tank, algal blooms were so severe that I was having to scrape the sides of the tank daily. At one point, I purchased a phosphate test kit and found that my tap water contained a low phosphate level but that my aquarium water was literally of the chart. That explained the algae. After switching to another brand that contained no phosphates, my fish spawned quite regularly but produced no fry. It wasn't until I invested in a conductivity meter that I came to realize that the extract was doubling the conductivity of my tap water. Although my fish spawned regularly, the high conductivity was preventing egg fertilization and/or development. With this new found knowledge, I discontinued the extracts all together, performed water changes as per usual and had to run out and get two new tanks to grow out the fry.

Go figure.

The moral of the story is, sometimes less is more. Given a choice, go au natural.

Randall Kohn

 

[aspen]

conductivity of water is raised by adding substances which produce electrolytes. the conductiity of the amazon is LOW. this leads me to believe that the extract products are doing more than just making the water tea stained. peat is good, obviously if there are phosphates in the store bought stuff, that is bad. lots of people relate the same stories about peat, that hard to spawn s/a fish are often stimulated by peat.

rick

 

[Orchid]

We have about four acres of oak leaves to rake. Anything that makes that job easier works for me. No rain for the next few days, so maybe I'll collect some oak leaves tomarrow. Shouldn't they be sterilized, though?

 

[Randall]

I'll collect some oak leaves tomarrow. Shouldn't they be sterilized, though?

Dear Chris,

Yes, sterilizing freshly collected oak leaves would be a good idea, lest one introduce some patheogen. Simply bring a pot of water to a boil, introduce the leaves and stir long enough until all the leaves have been submerged. Because boiling will cause the leaves to leech, only do this for a moment, long enough to kill anything that may be on them.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn