Please ID macmasteri, viejita or an other.

[Peter Lovett1]

These fish came to me in area but I'm now glad they sent them as they are very nice looking fish.

MALE

MALE

FEMALE

 

[Mike Wise]

Looks like A. macmasteri to me.

 

[blueblue]

Hi Peter: We also recently got a similar kind of fish in Hong Kong and the trading name was viejita (as expected); I agree with Mike that it is macmasteri as it has a very distinct red shoulder.

 

[DWFISH]

I think it is a A. viejita over the A. macmasteri. The only thing i was thinking is that my macmasteri has extension on the tail vs the viejita has a round tail. But I dont think that matters.

 

[Mike Wise]

Once you see the 'true' A. viejita, there is no way it can be mistaken for A. macmasteri or any of the hybrid forms commonly seen in the hobby. All A. viejita have round tails, but A. macmasteri can have round, truncate (squared off back edge), or short extensions on the upper & lower lobes.

 

[fishgeek]

mike can you lead me to a photo of a viejita

the fish peter has shown are what i often see advertised as super red viejita over here
and i thought they were closer to the real viejita as they have the rouder tail and more slender body

andrew
i just call them mac-jita's

 

[Peter Lovett1]

The one thing i missed off on purpose is that they are wild caught. I have to ask the same question what does a viejita look like.

 

[blueblue]

Datz' South American Dwarf Cichlids (2005) have photos of viejita;
Mike is right, the two can be distinguished if we remember the appearance
of viejita in Datz' photos...

 

[fishgeek]

right now i am even more confused

how do you tell the difference between the two in pictures a122 and a123 on page 60
on page 59 123 looks very different , obvious spot on belly no red shoulder
lateral line not obvious , tail or is the bit in front of the dorsal fin the caudal peduncle?, that spot not evident

is it a scale counting thing?
do different moods affect the visual differentiation here?

is there mislabeling of photo's in the datz book aswell?

andrew
still confused

 

[Rolo]

mike can you lead me to a photo of a viejita

look at www.apistogramma.net for more ;-)

the fish peter has shown are what i often see advertised as super red viejita over here

if it is called "super-red", you can assume, that they are Macmasteri-breeding forms ;-)
There are no colorful breeding forms of A. viejita, that could be called "super-red" ;-)

greetings,
Rolo

 

[Mike Wise]

how do you tell the difference between the two in pictures a122 and a123 on page 60

There are many differences if you have a discerning eye (& wild-caught fish). Compared to A. macmasteri, A. viejita has a more slender body form, the posterior tips of the dorsal & anal fins (males) are much longer, the narrower lateral band has a zigzag border throughout it length (not only on the posterior half, as on A. macmasteri) which does not start to break up and become separate blotches starting at Bar 2 (as on A. macmasteri), has more prominent abdominal stripes, and bright red tips on the dorsal fin. When displaying A. viejita loses the vertical bars on its posterior (macs show them better) as well as any abdominal markings. These are replaced by a broad sooty black patch below the lateral band, between the ventral & anal fins.

on page 59 123 looks very different , obvious spot on belly no red shoulder lateral line not obvious , tail or is the bit in front of the dorsal fin the caudal peduncle?, that spot not evident

This photo shows a male in full lateral display.

is it a scale counting thing?
do different moods affect the visual differentiation here?

Scale counts will not help because these overlap on the 2 species. As you can see on the photos of A. viejita (and Red-shoulder/Rotrücken Macs) the pattern does change with their emotional state.

is there mislabeling of photo's in the datz book aswell?

No, these 2 species are accurately identified. The only change I would make is that of A228, p.101. It is labled A. sp. Abacaxis. This fish comes from the Rio Marimari & might be a separate species in its own right. I give it the name under which it was sold in Japan, A (cf.) pulchra Marimari. I have no doubt that it is at least closely related to A. sp. Abacaxis, if not just a geographic morph of that species. If you want, you can also change the names A. sp. Trombetas 1 (A 145, p. 69) to A. angayuara and A. sp. Trombetas 2 (A 173, p. 78) to A. salpinction. The descriptions & names of these 2 species did not come out until after the Datz book was published. The authors knew what these species would be named before their descriptions were published, but did not list them (professional courtesy).

 

[Peter Lovett1]

Well I still have my doubts on if it is a macmasteri or a viejita.

I am in the fortunate position to have quite a few of these fish too look at.

At the moment the fish is about 2" standard length. Though still small it is sexually mature. The fish Is also quite elongated in comparison to any tank bred macmasteri I have seen (Never seen a wild caught in the flesh untill now may be) and also look more elongated than most pics of wild viejita I have seen as well. It does however show the dorsal and anal fin outline of a viejita and not that of a macmasteri. Also the snout stripe runs through the iris and makes a straight line through the eye to the post-orbital stripe. In most macmasteri the snout stripe runs above the iris.

I will try to add more pic later today.

 

[a.d.wood]

Hi there,

I'm not sure if these images will clear or add to the confusion. This is a male taken from the original batch of wild fish that Peter received:

It would be grand if we could reach an agreement on which species they are!!!

Andrew

 

[Mike Wise]

First let me say that it is always hard to ID fish from just a few photos. Looking at your new photos, it appears that the fish have been kept in an aquarium for some time since they were shipped in from the wild. This leads to very robust fish. This also makes the body form unreliable. The shape of the caudal (truncate) & lateral band (zigzag on the posterior half, more even on the anterior half) point to A. macmasteri. If this is a mature fish (as it appears to be), the dorsal and anal fin extensions are comparatively short for A. viejita, but about right for A. macmasteri.

 

[Peter Lovett1]

Up date on my male,

Not the best pic but does show his dorsal and anal fin nicely

For me this fish sits somewhere in between macmasteri and viejita.

 

[Konigwolf]

Going on Linke & Staek description (if still correct) and identifaction difference in american cichlids 1:dwarf cichlids it points to a macmasteri, especially if woods pics are of type of fish as peters because and I quote from the viejita section "Similar Species Apistogramma macmasteri ... Furthermore, it has a high and wide caudal spot" pg 156

my 2c

Andrew

 

[Peter Lovett1]

Thanks for you input Konigwolf,

I am not saying this fish is viejita but i am also not convinced that it macmasteri enough to be a macmasteri. It is easyer for me as i have 50 fish to look at and watch all you have are pictures.

Also I would not keep pressing the piont if I was not pretty sure that this fish does not comply with either type. All the photos of a viejita show a fish with a blue anal fin with stripes. this fish has a blue anal fin with strips also the dosal and anal and ventral fins are very exstended.I will agree that it has many taits similar to macmasteri.

Both Andrews fish and mine are young adults and still have some growing to do.

 

[Mike Wise]

If these are truly wild-caught fish, then there is no doubt that this is A. macmaseri. Wild (true) A. viejita very rarely (on very mature fish) have a caudal fin with very short double tips, but they never grow as long as seen on your last photo. Some wild A. macmasteri do (particularly the red-shoulder/Rotrücken form), as do some populations of A. hoignei. The DATZ book shows a young fish that has intermediate characteristics (A 122), but the head profile looks different to me. Perhaps your fish is somewhat different, but to me it looks conforms to A. macmasteri.

 

[Peter Lovett1]

Hi Mike,

I understand what you are saying and to be honest you are more than likely correct. However i still have my doubts.