Getting the Right Water Parameters.

[Tbar100]

Hello,

I am new here, and would like to start a ten gallon tank with a pair of German Blue Rams. I wanted something "easier" than the complex reefs I am used to! I have a question however, about obtaining the right pH. The pH of my tapwater is about 7.6 - 7.9ish, too high for German Blue Rams! So, I buy RODI water from my LFS for my saltwater tanks already with a pH of about 6.4ish, and was hoping to use that water for my German Blue Rams. I hear that RODI has almost nothing in it, as it is pure H2O, so, would I need to supplement the water with anything to make it suitable for my German Blue Rams, if I want to keep them happy and possibly breed them? I hear that people mix some tapwater with RODI, would that be a viable option for me?

Thanks!

Marc

 

[apistobob]

You can find a lot of different opinions about this topic. Personally, I use 100% RO (not RO/DI) in my tanks. Many people say that RO water is too pure and unstable. They maintain that it is best to either mix with tap water or add a RO water conditioner to the water. Over the years I have tried just about everything and have found that for me water straight from my RO is great for my fish.

If you do not add anything to the RO/DI water you must be aware that there is no buffering capacity to this water. This means that the pH can swing very low quite rapidly. One of the biggest reasons for adding tap water or chemicals is to add back some of the buffering capacity that the RO removes. This type of water is typically more stable.

Since I am basically lazy, I would try the water without treating it and monitor the tank conditions. If you have problems with pH stability then you can experiment with different mixing to look for better results. If the fish thrive and you have no pH problems you will be able to use the straight water.

Bob

 

[Tbar100]

Bob,

So do you find that your water is stable, and the pH does not swing very much even though you use RO?

Marc

 

[michelle]

Straight RO

Hi Bob and Marc,

Sorry I am new to the forum and don't wish to hijack your post. I also have trouble with PH swings and dont know whether to carry on with this tank until I get it all stable or just start again from scratch with perhaps neat RO as you are suggesting. It seems pointless startng a new thread when one is already going on the subject.

I acquired a new tank recently set up a s a cichlid tank, had far to travel and one or two problems on getting it home. By the time it was up and running I had to do a mini cycle with the tank. Got all the water parameters right today and thought I'd check the GH KH and had a bit of a shock. GH 4 KH 40+ gave up counting after that.

I have got a new RO unit with this tank and find with my water parameters if I add four parts RO with one part tap treated with Stress Coat (dechlorinator), I get RO 6.9 and approxiately GH KH of 4 to 5 ish. Trouble is this changes.

Can I ask the question, is it because I have added this water to the existing tank water that causes the trouble.

Can I also ask the question, if you use neat RO water, are you not worried that the pH would fall below 6 thereby risking the healthy bacteria in your filter.

Finally what would cause my water parameters to be so up and down.(KH reading). Could I use "Waterlife" 6.5 buffer to stablise it?

Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 5 - 10 ppm
pH. 7.
KH 40+
GH 4

I am a newbie by the way and very new to apistogrammas. I lost a pair recently to an outbreak of callumanus and want the water parameters spot on this time. PS only been keeping fish seriously since Jan so I have had a lot to take in and learn.

Sorry again Marc for hijacking the thread but I am really keen to find out how to avoid these pH swings as I am desperate to set up a cichlid tank with a pair of apistos in again. The tank I am preparing is 120 litre.

Look forward to your reply

Thanks
Michelle

 

[apistobob]

Yes, my conditions do stay fairly stable. Unfortunately, I can't give you exact measurements since I quit doing regular testing years ago. I only test now if I suspect I have a problem. Rather, I closely observe my fish and know what is normal. Any behavior or general appearance that is off tells me that I need to investigate further. This is not a practice I recommend to anyone as it is a personal method that I have developed over my several decades of keeping dwarfs.

One thing that helps is that my current RO membrane is quite old so I am sure it is not as efficient as it should be. This means that the water is not quite as pure so it has more buffering capacity.

As I said, I am basically lazy and I believe that it is best to try and get the fish to adapt to me rather than having to go through a lot of work to modify my conditions for the fish. I run more than 30 tanks of dwarf cichlids and between culturing food, doing water changes, routine maintenance and maintaining my website I already spend a lot of time with the fish. If I can avoid water testing and treatment it helps a lot.

The water you describe - RO&DI might be too pure and you might experience trouble. Since you are likely already doing a lot of testing with your saltwater it shouldn't be too much for you to test this tank. If it was me I would try the straight water and monitor. If you have no problems you will be in great shape. If there are problems you can either add tap water or buffers.

Bob

 

[michelle]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your quick response but I don't know whether you have got me muddled up with Mark. I do not use RO/DI water just RO water mixed with tap. In fact I am so new to fishkeeping I don't even know what the DI part stands for - sorry.

But your comments gives me food for thought.
Thank you Michelle

 

[Mud Pie Mama]

Michelle, as you say you recently aquired this cichlid tank, did you get it as a complete package from another hobbiest? Your KH is so far off the chart I'm wondering if something in the tank is leaching into the water. What substrate are you using? Do you have any additional rocks for decor? You can test your water first before you put it into the tank to see if it is different; then test your tank.

Some of the substrates listed as "Cichlid Substrates" are for the African Rift Lake Cichlids. These species need hard water. Very different from the South American soft water and African Riverine species.

Since you are just setting up this tank, have you stocked it with any fish yet? If not, then wait until this mystery is resolved.

I would not add in any additional chemical to try to stabilize the water; this is a slippery slope to go down. Adding more stuff to the water increases your TDS, most Dwarf Cichlids are much happier with low levels of TDS. Best principle is try to avoid adding in more.

What species of cichlids were you looking to keep in your new tank?

PS. Welcome to the forum and wonderful hobby of fishkeeping!:biggrin:

 

[Tbar100]

Michelle, not a problem, ask as many questions as you like, I am always learning. In reference to my tank. I will use RO water to fill it (has tap right now) and then do some water changes and see how that goes. Oh, Bob, VERY nice site! I spent all morning reading it!!

 

[michelle]

Hi you guys,

I have taken the fish out of this tank. It did have bolivian rams in it.

The substrate of the tank was a mixture of large stones, gravel, a plastic sheet , a laterite clay layer and some sand. As the platsic sheeting was poking out all over the place and unsightly I decided to investigate the tank further. Found some bolders, pink, green and orange gravel (oh dear) so decided to remove this as I like things to look natural. The good thing was that this tank was very heavily planted and did look beautiful before the plants were removed along with the fish for transport.

I can't understand all other water parameters appear fine, but this KH well. It never did turn the right colour - it stayed a very dark blue.

I have carried out a 40% water change this afternoon, and I hope this helps.
I don't want to damage the filter as this has just got its levels back up and working again.

I am hoping to keep a pair of aggies. and thank you for the warm welcome to the forum. Gosh what a long post!

PS sorry I don't understand some terms TDS is one and the other is RO/DI
So when you say dont add any chemical buffer as it affect the TDS, I dont know what that means

Thanks for your help and concern
Michelle

 

[Mud Pie Mama]

TDS = Total Dissolved Solids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_dissolved_solids

In unscientifec terms I tend to think of low TDS water as light, purer water; and high TDS water as "thick" water.

RO = Reverse Osmosis

RO/DI = Reverse Osmosis/Deionization. Reverse Osmosis water that is then run thru a final filter containing Ion Exchange resins. This water is ultra pure. Perhaps more important in scientific research facilities, etc. Some saltwater fanatics prefer total control over their water too.:tongue:

When I decided to really get serious w/ keep dwarf cichlids by providing proper H2O, I purchased my system from Buckeyefieldsupply. They have a great FAQ page that helped me understand whats - what:
http://www.buckeyefieldsupply.com/FAQ.asp

 

[Tbar100]

Mud Pie,

Do you use RO or RODI? I am just concerned about using pure RO, because my pH meter says there is a difference in the pHs from different batches, bought at the same time ???

Marc

 

[Mud Pie Mama]

Marc, my first passion is gardening and planted aquaria. The dwarf cichlids are a very close second. Most of my tanks are heavily planted. Even those dedicated to spawning dwarfs, I've got some plants. Many plants do better w/ some KH and GH to provide necessary calcium and magnesium.

For species that are a little more particular; and especially those I'm crazy about enough to fuss on. (Currently Apistogramma baenschi & wild A. sp. "Masken". ) I've found cutting my water 50/50 is working just fine. I use 50% plain RO (no DI) and 50% treated tap water.


Some of the 'easier' dwarfs have even produced viable spawns in my rock-hard water straight from my tap: KH - 7 & GH - 14! Incl., Anomalochromis thomasi, Laetacara dorsigera and Pelvicachromis taeniatus "Moliwe". I have some new Apistogramma borellii "Red Mask" that I am also trying out first in my regular tap water. If I've read that a species has a greater tolerance, or come from naturally harder waters, than I am first going to see how well they do in my un-cut water. Also, some species are very much domestic breed, coming from several generation tank raised, I think they also have more tolerance. If they can handle my regular water, than I can keep them as one of the featured fish AKA 'the star of the show' in a planted display tank. A much bigger and better home for them!

If they're fussy, and I still love them, well it's a 15g or 20g long tank they'll get to call home.

Some day I'd love to try raising Dicrossus filamentosus. That may call for seriously revising my S.O.P. Until then, I've got plenty to keep me entertained and busy:


My baby A. baenschi, two months old.:biggrin:

 

[Tbar100]

Thanks Mud Pie,

I think I will try adding half and half as well. That way the water has some substance to it, and hopefully will not change too radically.

Seems like you are one busy Mama!

Marc

Edit - I have been realizing that as my tap water ages, the pH goes up. Does anyone else see that? It goes shooting up past 8.0 within 2 days!

 

[michelle]

Thanks for that Mud Pie.

Once you mentioned it (TDS) I realised this is something I've read before, but the DI was a new one for me thanks. and the RO info. was excellent. Great picture of the baenschi fry btw.

Marc,

I have been struggling with similar problems as you have ragarding the pH rising after a couple of days. Lots of different things have been suggested,
such as Oak leaves, peat - boiling, soaking etc. I've even tried rainwater, but I have doubts about the quality/pollutants of that.

I suppose it all depends on the quality coming out of your tap and the base line that you start from. My normal water parameters coming out of the tap are nitrates 100 plus (and that actually breaks the law) with GH 300 and KH250 So I have trouble before it even reaches the tank. That's why when the RO unit came up - I grabbed it. Just got to get to know all the more technical ins and outs of that.

But getting the pH stable - well you are not alone. As i've just started keeping fish I am exploring all the options, as I prefer the easiest and most simple method.

Michelle

 

[Tbar100]

Quick question on water temp. The Rams I am getting have been kept at about 78 F since Feb. Would it be too stressful or bad to bump them up to 83 ish degrees when they get to my tank? Or, should I put them in at 78-79 F and slowly raise the temperature over a few weeks?

Thanks!

Marc

 

[Tbar100]

Ok, so I filled the tank with RODI, 2 buckets, half and half, one was 5.73 and the other was 6.24. Now the pH in the tank has risen since yesterday afternoon to 7.38!!!! I suspect something in the tank could be raising the pH because in the excess water I had, I mixed, and left for top off. That water is measuring at 6.45. Here is what I have in the tank: regular gravel substrate - brown, a fake log (plastic- hollow), fake plants, and river rocks. I think the rocks may be bumping it up. What do you guys think? Also, when I emptied the tank to fill it with RODI, there was water still in the log, not a ton but still some in there (I didn't want to have to move everything and dump it out and rescape it) so could that excess water be raising the pH, even if it is a small amount?

Thanks!

Marc

 

[Mike Wise]

It is most likely either the gravel or the rocks. I suggest that you put some muriatic acid (industrial grade hydrochloric acid that can be found at many hardware stores) on a sample of the gravel and a small part of each rock. The one that effervesces is the one that is raising the pH by adding CO3 into the water.

 

[Tbar100]

Ok, I did a quick test with vinegar but nothing showed. My guess is the hydrochloric acid will test for something else right? I just re-filled the tank with brand spankin new RODI so hopefully with no rocks, but I will not be surprised. I want the rocks in there, they look so nice, but hopefully it will stay lower with them outa there. What about the temp, will that be too much of a problem as I stated in my other post? I ask because on another group I am a part of, a guy got some coldwater seahorses so he put them in water that was the temp of their native habitats. But he learned later, after they were breathing really hard that the guy who he got them from kept them at a temp a bit higher so he raised it, and will be lowering it slowly over the next few months. What do you think?

Thanks!

Marc

 

[RHS788]

Michelle:
If you think of water with no minerals in it, versus water with a lot of minerals in it, that is the difference between water that is often "hard", (lots of minerals) and "soft" (few minerals).

The minerals have a positive or negative electrical charge. If you introduce resins that have a positive charge, the minerals with a negative charge tend to attract to the resin. If you introduce resins that have a negative charge, then the positive minerals (ions) attract to those resins. If you do this enough the result is "demineralized" water. The general process is sometimes referred to as ro. TDS relates to total dissolved solids (which is sort of like measuring the minerals.

Quite often lots of minerals are more associated with high ph, thus the rocks, etc. that you have in a tank can make a big difference.

What I would suggest is set up a small bare tank for a few days and test that water, which will indicate what is happening with the genuine water, and not the impact of other elements.

As far as oak leaves, peat, etc, they will all pull down ph, but with constant water changes it is always hard to gauge.

I don't know if this helps, but at least it will give you more to think about.

Randy

 

[michelle]

Thanks Randy,

I am beginning to understand this element to fishkeeping. I have a sand substrate (inert aquarium) with only terracotta pots and bogwood. It is heavily planted. The KH skyrocketed on this tank following a mini cycle when I set it up after moving it but has remained steady now at GH 6 KH6. All other water parameters are back to normal.

I have been doing small water changes using 4 parts RO to 1 part dechlorinated tap. When done as an experiment it worked out ok. so now I just have to make sure that I get this spot on in the tank. Hopefully soon I will be looking at stocking it with a trio of aggies. but I'm in no desperate hurry, so rather get this pH thing sorted out first.

Thanks again,
Michelle