Discussion of apisto/dwarf illnesses

[Eva32181]

I am in the middle of tackling a major Ich outbreak, and it has claimed one of my cacatuoides and three of my rams, as well as several neons. I think all of my surviving fish have all turned the corner with the disease and are going to make it. Now I just have to complete the treatment to completely rid my tanks of this parasite.

Most people think of Ich as the White Spot disease - if you see white spots on your fish (not velvet), then it's Ich. One thing I have learned, however, is that not all Ich infections appear as white spot. Another sign of the disease is heavy breathing, especially among dwarfs.

A few months back I lost several Rams - they all showed signs of gill disease - heavy breathing, hanging out at the surface - and they all died very quickly after the onset of symptoms. I thought this must be some kind of gill disease, and treated it with Maracyn-II and later Fluke Tabs. Neither worked at all.

At this point I think that mysterious gill disease was actually Ich. Ich can sometimes attach itself to a fish's gills, where it is hidden from view beneath the gill covers. Some of my neons have showed the obvious white spots, but only a few of my dwarfs did. I think they suffered from Ich in their gills. They only showed symptoms (heavy breathing) when their gills were too far gone.

Another thing I have learned about Ich is that it is not something that lies dormant in most tanks, waiting to attack a weakened fish. I thought Ich was something that was always there, and when fish contracted the white spots it was a sign that they were stressed, possibly by bad water quality. I figured that as long as I kept my tank clean and in the ideal range, my fish would not be suceptible.

So when I first saw the white spots on my neons, I didn't take it seriously. They are just weak fish, right? When my dwarfs got the "heavy breathing disease," I didn't connect the two. I guess now I know better - Ich is deadly! I am treating my tanks for the disease now, and even though none of my fish show obvious symptoms anymore, I have to keep treating the tank for a few weeks (at least) to totally eradicate the disease. And I've learned (the hard way) to QT all new fish, so I never reintroduce Ich into my tanks again.

Sorry for the super long post - this disease has been a nightmare. Has anyone else had dwarfs die after gasping for breath? What do you think?

 

[aspen]

eva, you are right, ich will kill fish. but, i do not believe that ick will be concentrated in the gills only. an ick out break appears as white spots on the fish. other gill problems are prevalent, like flukes, but there are many others.

for ick, the best treatment is, treating the tank with quickcure, or some other ext parasite med, and raising the temp to above 84 deg, making sure that you add extra aeration. this will cause the disease to run it's course quickly, and make it impossible for the ick to reproduce.

but, you do know that if you catch it in quarentine, it is much better than affecting all of your fish.

fyi, i had an ick outbreak in my ram fry tanks once, and didn't lose one. i used only heat and aeration, but if i was to do it over, i would use a med, so the outbreak is not so severe. when you raise the temp, it causes the outbreak to run it's course very quickly, and the fish look real bad for a couple of days. that was in the days when i considered using ANY med to be bad for fish. now i consider the proper use of meds to be a necessary part of keeping fish properly. but i also know that meds used improperly to be the most common cause of fish death.

rick

 

[Eva32181]

You're right, there are a lot of things that can attack a fish's gills besides Ich. But I think Ich can be invisible, and that seeing white spots aren't always required to diagnose Ich. This is where I get this idea:

"Ich is all too easily identified with the naked eye at the final full development of the trophont. (In fact Ichthyophthirius multifilis is the largest known single-celled parasite on fishes.) As a result, many aquarists don't want to believe Ich is attacking their fish till they actually see the white spots. This is an error. Often a spot or two pass unnoticed, since newly-settled trophonts are too small to see anyway, and especially since early infestations are likely to attach to the gills, where they stay invisible as they grow. If you wait until later stages, badly infested small fishes may be too weakened to save. " ---- www.skepticalaquarist.com

What he says coincides with my experience. If you see one of your dwarfs afflicted with gill disease, treating the tank for Ich may be your best bet. Popular remedies sold in pet shops for gill flukes may do more harm than good (in my experience).

 

[Scooter]

Yeah Eva, it's an unfortunate truth, but quarantining is the best way. I've got some dwarfs in qt right now, which have been there for nearly five weeks. Even though I want to put them in the show tank so bad, I have to be patient. In this hobby, patience is hard to come by

 

[aspen]

ok eva, i think i see where you are coming from. in a room temperature tank an ich infestation can go unnoticed for some time. but, ich is a very fast breeding parasite at 78- 80 deg, which i believe is what we mostly keep our amazon dwarfs at.

imo and ime, if you want to see ich breed like crazy, turn the temp up to 82 deg, and a few of these little buggers will become a major outbreak in a short amount of time, if there are any in there. turn up the temp to 86, and all of the spores or whatever, will cause a major infestation in an even shorter time, except the breeding cycle is broken. they cannot reproduce at these temps, but the fish will appear almost completely covered.

imo, quarentine is the place to stop the cycle. if you eradicate these guys in quarentine, they will never re-appear in your other tanks, unless you inadvertantly add them in there. i doubt strongly that ich will remain unnoticed for long in a tank at 82 deg.

i keep discus, and have never had ick in my discus tanks, because i always keep the temp at 84 deg or higher. imo, ick is not a disease of warm water fish, and if they do get it, simply raising the temp will speed up the outbreak, but once it is gone, it is gone.

rick

 

[Eva32181]

That's a good point. My tanks are around 81 - not hot enough to kill it off apparently. I would go hotter but I've got all those plants in there. Also, products like Rid-Ich and Quick cure kill gill flukes as well as ich, so whichever parasite your fish actually have, it still works. The salt method isn't very plant friendly, either.

What I saw happening was my tetras getting visible symptoms of ich, but my rams not showing any spots until suddenly they were gasping and dying. If the tetras weren't in the tank, I might never have thought it was ich. I just think the traditional assumption that ich always means white spots is not always true.

 

[Neil]

I have 60 tanks or more and regularly move fish around and bring in new fish. Usually my contact(s) use meds in a quarantine situation, so I rarely do anything. There are times when I have had trouble, but not often because of the people that I deal with. However, over the years, I have gotten fish from many sources and have brought things into my fishroom.

The one thing that I want to add here is that in those years, I can never recall a time when even one of my Apistogramma species got ICK. Like Eva, I assume Ick to be a visual manifestation of white spots. This discussion is interesting and is now making me think that there is more here than meets the eye. I have, like all who have kept apistos for any time, in any numbers, had many die after the gasping senario. But this is almost always isolated occurances and does not affect others in the tank. If Ick is attacking the gills of these fish, I believe it to be because of a stressor that occured in these individuals to make them susceptible hosts.

I must add here that there is Unique Unknown Death Syndrome in Apistogramma. This malady attacks "apparently" heathy individuals with no visable symptoms aside from the heavy breathing. It infects an apisto in a heathy tank with all other fish unaffected and never occuring in that tank again. It does not relate to age (although it doesn't happen to very young fish) and apparently is not contagious. I have discussed this with others that have had alot of apistos and they all have seen it. Again, I am sure that this relates to a stressor (like aggression or breeding), because it often occurs after breeding. I take it as a fact of life with apistos now and don't try and upset the tank by medicating, because I know that it will unlikely affect the others. This, by far, is the most prevelant cause of death in apistos that are kept in appropriate conditions. And may be related to this gill Ick.

Many other Dwarfs contract Ick, with white spots, including Rams. But not often. I have a feeling that the elements of soft, acidic water is not a conducive environment for Ick (or numerous other diseases commonly foung in aquarium fish). All this is only IME.
Neil