Apistogramma MacMasteri & Juruensis

[slimbolen99]

Just got back in from the MCA in Kansas City. Great show. Still an auction to go tomorrow.

Picked up four WC Apistogramma macmasteri and four WC Apistogramma juruensis. They had a long ride in, but they are acclimating well. I'm in the process of setting up a 20 gallon (24" x 12") biotope setup for each species.

After I got them in their tanks, it looked like either there were some mislabeled ones...or extreme differences...anyone care to confirm identification for me?

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[Mike Wise]

You've got some nice looking fish there, but they aren't the fish that you thought that you bid for. The first 2 photos show a nice pair of A. cf. eunotus (Orangeschwanz/Orange-stripes). The rest of the photos are of A. sp. Schwarzkinn/Black-chin.

 

[slimbolen99]

Wow. When I ask this, I mean no disrespect, but are there any other possibilities? Is telling apistos apart pretty easy?

They were pretty stressed at the show, so it was difficult to tell them apart; I guess what I'm saying, is, and I suppose I should have done a little research prior, but wouldn't the person selling them who claims that they got them wild caught, have a pretty good idea of what is what? Or should I go back to the seller and say, hey, this is not what they are, you sold me this...?

Thanks again. I really appreciate it.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Slimbolen, I think they are nice fish and a good purchase and I'd definitely keep them. As you suggest, it is not that easy to identify any Apistogramma, and knowledge of where it was collected may be important in correctly I.D'ing it. Additionally many of the names that fish are collected/sold under are not necessarily correct, and in many cases the fish have never been scientifically described and named.

I'll try to reply to your questions (as I know Mike is a modest man). For me Mike is probably the person most qualified to I.D any particular Apisto-gramma, as he has been one of the leading figures in the dwarf Cichlid world for many years, so it is very likely that he is correct with his I.D's.

Personally I claim no expertise, but I have hung around this forum for a while and picked up some scattered crumbs of knowledge, again for me your Apistogramma macmasteri/eunotus does have a red marked caudal fins, like many forms of A. macmasteri, but the male has blue cheek markings, and his scales look like they have been individually outlined with a darker colour, very suggestive of A. eunotus. If the male was A. macmasteri, I'd expect him to have much more prominent black longitudinal band, probably broken into very obvious blotches. I'm not knowledgeable enough to I.D. the female. Also your A. eunotus may be captive bred, as if it was wild collected it would come from Peru, and A. macmasteri from Columbia.

A. "juruensis" is more straightforward, I know from this forum that the true A. juruensis (absolutely stunning looking) is a very rare fish in the hobby, and that the scientifically undescribed A. sp. Schwarzkinn/Black-chin is nearly all substituted for it. Your photos show the black chin and yellow lips of A. sp "Black-chin" really clearly, so it is definitely not A. juruensis but A. sp. "Black-chin".

Hope that helps.

cheers Darrel

 

[slimbolen99]

Thank you. As I write this, the company sponsoring the page is the one I purchased the fish from. I'll address the issue with them.

Thanks again.

Bb

 

[Mike Wise]

Don't be too hard on the supplier. They may honestly not know the difference and sold the fish under the names that their supplier used. Almost no one can know every species.

Species identification from pictures are always problematic, but in your case I'm fairly certain of my IDs. In my case, 30+ years of experience does help. Please, do question answers. I find no disrespect in questioning my reply. Anyone can make a mistake (especially me - just ask my wife of 36 year!:biggrin:. Thanks for you vote of confidence, Darrel. Everyone needs a "warm fuzzy" now and then.). Darrel's information on the difference between A. juruensis and A. sp. Schwarzkinn/Black-chin is spot on. Sadly, most of the books and web sites have Black-chin erroneously labeled as "A. juruenis" and this just continues the problem.

As for the difference between A. eunotus and A. macmasteri, Darrel is right again, but there are some other easily seen features that separate the two species. A. eunotus males will have a dorsal fin on which the spines are only very slightly serrated. On A. macmasteri males the dorsal fin is much more highly serrated. The caudal fin on A. eunotus will be round to squared off and almost never shows upper and lower caudal tips. On A. macmasteri, the males will develop a squared off caudal fin with two well developed (but often short) tips. On A. eunotus males, orange/red pigment is generally more widely spread on the caudal fin, while on A. macmasteri it is much brighter and restricted to the upper and lower margins of the tail. I hope this helps.

 

[slimbolen99]

Thanks Mike. It's always frustrating to spend your money and not get what you were sold. Oh well. They're all great looking fish and I look forward to recreating their habitats.

Thanks again all for your input.

Bb

 

[slimbolen99]

I placed an inquiry to the seller about the location of collection. Hopefully they will respond in short order.

 

[Mike Wise]

I placed an inquiry to the seller about the location of collection. Hopefully they will respond in short order.

When I was in Peru, I visited the biotopes of these 2 species. Both are found in the neighborhood of Iquitos. If you are looking for "aquarium beautiful" with lush aquatic plants, then you'll be disappointed. The only aquatic plants were submerged broad leaf grasses and algae. Most of the bottom was actually covered by leaf litter and brush.

 

[slimbolen99]

Great. That gives me something to go off of if the seller doesn't come through. That's kind of what I had in mind...pebbles on the bottom with some sand covered by a thick pile of leaves and some roots/driftwood.

 

[Mike Wise]

There are no rocks in the Peruvian Amazon. Actually, the only rocks I saw in the Iquitos area were some pebbles in an exporter's building. He had to bring them in from outside the region.

 

[slimbolen99]

Here was the location response:

They were all collected in the Iquitos Peru area. They collect a lot in the Nanay and Mazan River Locations. They do not provide exact locations but these narrow them down enough.

 

[amazontropical]

Interesting comments so far. However I am positive these were not tank raised. They were imported from Peru.
These were as they were sold to me. It is difficult to ID these fish when they come in and I do appreciate the help in IDing them.
I do sell them as they are billed to me unless I am positive they are something else, then I have to document that for Fish and Wildlife for when they inspect my facilities. Misidentification in print does not help in the identification processes and one persons word does not change what is print it only helps add to everyones confusion. Even then they are not described species.
This is also the case with L number Plecos when they are so far behind on identifying species or whether they are just geographical color variances. This will be the case when all is said and done on undescribed species and will most likely be the case even on currently described species. And useful tools such as this forum will help to continue the debate and hopefully push the description of this group of fish.

 

[Mike Wise]

My guess is that the collecting location, "in the Iquitos Peru area" is positively correct. The Black-chin Apisto is only known to occur in the Río Nanay system. The Orange-tail Apisto is found over a larger area centered around Iquitos. FYI, neither is found in the Río Mazán, but it's possible that the Orange-tail Apisto does occur around the town of Mazán, at the mouth of the Río Napo.

A. macmasteri only occurs in central Colombia (Orinoco system) and A. juruensis only occurs in western Brazil (Rio Juruá system). A list from Peru with these two species on it would raise a big red flag for me - based on my 30+ years of experience with apistos. I, however, wouldn't expect many other importers/retailers to have such experience. Lord knows, I'd be a hopeless mess if I had to ID the zillions of loricarid species/forms! That's why I said not to be too hard on the dealer. He has to rely on his supplier for most of the IDs.

I understand the F&W bureaucracy, too. If a species isn't on their list, then a ton of headaches pop up. When I returned to the US from Peru with my fish I had mostly undescribed species. What I did was label them as known species with locality data. For example, my A. sp. Nadelstreifen/Needle-stripes were listed as "A. eunotus (Santa Rosa)". I knew they weren't A. eunotus and were collected across the Amazon from Santa Rosa in Colombia. F&W didn't. If asked, all I had to say is that they were A. eunotus - a known, approved species - from a certain location. If they looked at present scientific literature this is true. Apisto specialists know different.

 

[slimbolen99]

Regardless of the identification issue, I'm VERY happy about the fish I received. All of them are super happy. One male eunotus in particular is amazing. He's already got the other 3 fish cornered. I'm going to have to get those biotope setups going quickly.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Just to say to that my remark that they may be tank raised wasn't based on the fish at all, but purely on the I.D.'s given in that A. juruensis and A. macmasteri come from sources that are thousands of miles apart.

Mike says they are A. eunotus and A. "Black-chin", and these both come from the Iquitos region, which was the collecting location sent to "Amazontropical", so that would really remove any suspicion of them not being wild collected.

cheers Darrel