Help with Apistogramma Borelli breeding

[Memeboi]

Sorry i forgot the most important. I use RO water which i remineralize to 0kH/4gH. I don't mesure TDS.
The tap water is insanely hard where I live unfortunately.

Honestly, for just keeping Borelli, and not spawning, hard water is fine, they are the most hard water favorable of all Apistos (Seen ones that were raised in 8.0 PH), though I have very little of a clue about spawning in those water conditions.

 

[anewbie]

Honestly, for just keeping Borelli, and not spawning, hard water is fine, they are the most hard water favorable of all Apistos (Seen ones that were raised in 8.0 PH), though I have very little of a clue about spawning in those water conditions.

ph is kh; hardness is gh. Not disagreeing that borelli are the more flexible fish but ph doesn't represent hardness.

 

[MacZ]

ph is kh; hardness is gh. Not disagreeing that borelli are the more flexible fish but ph doesn't represent hardness.

KH is short for carbonate hardness (from German: Karbonathärte, hence the K) so it's a kind of hardness. GH stands for Gesamthärte (= overall hardness) and the GH-value includes KH. The KH is indeed involved in the pH-KH-CO2-Equilibrium and partly determines the pH.

Raised in a pH of 8.0 is possible, spawned in that pH... Unlikely but not impossible. But I'd estimate a slim chance.

 

[heelllooo]

Hello everyone,

I made progress. After the last failed spawn, they spawned again last thursday, this time in a bush of plants.

She is been guarding the spot until the weekend and now she is keeping a spot a few cm away in the same bush. I can't see anything between the plant and the dark gravel but I think it's safe to assume that there is wrigglers.

The only thing I've changed this time is that I've cranked up the temperature to 27°C because at night the room gets really cold and the temperature in the tank gets 1 degree below.

The female has been a lot more aggressive than anytime before and only go out very briefly to eat or chase the male. In general they exhibit new behavior.

I'm preparing myself for seeing free swimmers between Thursday and this weekend, if I'm not mistaken ?
I've bought Hobby protogen ( which seems to be a good product for inexperienced guy like me ) and I'm gonna start hatching bbs tomorrow.

I only have a few questions : I would like, if possible, to lower the temperature back progressively. When can I start doing so ? What temperature would you keep during the growth of the fry ? I would like to go back to 24°C long term.

Thanks.

 

[Apistoguy52]

Hello everyone,

I made progress. After the last failed spawn, they spawned again last thursday, this time in a bush of plants.

She is been guarding the spot until the weekend and now she is keeping a spot a few cm away in the same bush. I can't see anything between the plant and the dark gravel but I think it's safe to assume that there is wrigglers.

The only thing I've changed this time is that I've cranked up the temperature to 27°C because at night the room gets really cold and the temperature in the tank gets 1 degree below.

The female has been a lot more aggressive than anytime before and only go out very briefly to eat or chase the male. In general they exhibit new behavior.

I'm preparing myself for seeing free swimmers between Thursday and this weekend, if I'm not mistaken ?
I've bought Hobby protogen ( which seems to be a good product for inexperienced guy like me ) and I'm gonna start hatching bbs tomorrow.

I only have a few questions : I would like, if possible, to lower the temperature back progressively. When can I start doing so ? What temperature would you keep during the growth of the fry ? I would like to go back to 24°C long term.

Thanks.

Hooray! Careful with the temperature. The sexes of your baby borellii are determined by the temperature. 26* for the first month for best m/f ratio. Too hot = too many boys, too cold = too many girls

 

[MacZ]

You are aware A. borellii are usually kept at room temp between 18 and 22°C, even during growout? At more than that the fry might grow too fast and show development problems later on

 

[heelllooo]

I'm aware that it's hot for Borelli, but not of the undesirable effect concerning the fry.

Like said in my first post my tank is kept normally at 23-24 degree, which seems reasonable for Borelli from what I've read. But I was advised in this thread to put the temperature at 26. Seeing my failure and that it dropped during the night, I've cranked it up 1 degree like said in my last post.

I'm not at ease with the tank being this hot at all, but it seems to work.
The point of my last post is exactly to know at what temperature I should keep the tank during growout ? And when can I start progressively reduce the temperature ?
It's difficult to find those informations for Borelli.
Without counselling from people more expert, I gonna progressively reduce the temperature to 23-24 when I have freeswimmer ( if I do.. )

 

[Apistoguy52]

I'm aware that it's hot for Borelli, but not of the undesirable effect concerning the fry.

Like said in my first post my tank is kept normally at 23-24 degree, which seems reasonable for Borelli from what I've read. But I was advised in this thread to put the temperature at 26. Seeing my failure and that it dropped during the night, I've cranked it up 1 degree like said in my last post.

I'm not at ease with the tank being this hot at all, but it seems to work.
The point of my last post is exactly to know at what temperature I should keep the tank during growout ? And when can I start progressively reduce the temperature ?
It's difficult to find those informations for Borelli.
Without counselling from people more expert, I gonna progressively reduce the temperature to 23-24 when I have freeswimmer ( if I do.. )

26 is not hot for borellii, the whole borellii are a “cool water fish” is completely made up. Being a fish from the south, they’re able to survive being “cool” (say 15* seasonally) , but you’ll also find those same fish in water that’s 32* at a different time of year. Years ago Ken Davis iirc, collected them in a pond where the water running into the pond from the sugar cane field was 37*. Temp at 26* for the next month for the win

 

[MacZ]

Made up is only saying they're cool water fish. Room temp is not cool water.
Argueing with extreme minimum (I read of a proven 13°C) or maximum (considerably over 30°C) temperatures is not changing anything about typical "tropical" temperatures 25°C +/- probably being a bit too high for a too long timeframe if the average in that region is around 22°C if I remember the climate diagrams right.
Of course if you care mostly about quick growth to sellable size...

 

[anewbie]

Well -- just to chime in there are different catch location for a. borelli and a. sp borelli.... so perhaps one answer is not he right answer ?

 

[MacZ]

That's a very considerate position. I agree.

 

[Mike Wise]

Per Römer & Beißenherz's study 26°C for 6 weeks produced 50/50 sex ratio for A. borellii. I would use it. A. borellii is/are a species found in the Pantanal grasslands of South America and are not a rain forest species. As such they adapt easily to a wide range of temperatures.

 

[heelllooo]

Hello everyone,

Firstly I want to thank all the member of the forum which have helped me greatly !

I have free swimming fry since Thursday so 3 days !

I've set the temperature at 26,5°C knowing that it will drop 1 degree at night.

I've been feeding hobby protogen and a bit of bbs here and there but I'm not too serious about all the hatching process. For now, I haven't notice significant loss of fry, and I think I have around 30/40 fry right now. Hard to tell with all the vegetation.
I'm gonna receive a microworm culture next week.

Now the only issue I have is between the male and the female. As days goes by, the male slowly steals the fry to the female. Right now he has about half of the fry under his care. But in doing so he is very aggressive to the female, alternating between keeping his fry and actively looking for her. Today they had really violent mouth fights and the female seems really stressed.
Even tho the tank is heavily planted and full of line of sight breaks, he finds her pretty easily.

Hopping that the situation stabilize.

 

[Apistoguy52]

Congratulations! Interesting behavior….while the male borellii I kept also took charge of parading the fry around, it usually wasn’t until week three or four.

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, "fry theft" is fairly common among A. borellii, especially between females. This instinct is so strong in this species that they have been know to brood fry of other apisto species - and even fry of dwarf pikes!

 

[heelllooo]

The situation has gotten really worse.

The female doesn't have any fry left under her care. The male continue to be really aggressive with her though while keeping all the fry.

He has hurt her face badly. See the pics below. And she did stay in one corner of the tank all day long. She is really stressed but not inactive. Should I use medecine or something so that her wound don't develop infection.

The only other tank I have to put her in is an unheated, no filtration, heavily planted 10L cube full of shrimp with pretty much the same water parameter. Really not ideal. Should I put her in ? Of course I would slowly acclimate her to lower temperature. At night the unheated tank can go as low as 18 degree.

 

[squidz]

The situation has gotten really worse.

The female doesn't have any fry left under her care. The male continue to be really aggressive with her though while keeping all the fry.

He has hurt her face badly. See the pics below. And she did stay in one corner of the tank all day long. She is really stressed but not inactive. Should I use medecine or something so that her wound don't develop infection.

The only other tank I have to put her in is an unheated, no filtration, heavily planted 10L cube full of shrimp with pretty much the same water parameter. Really not ideal. Should I put her in ? Of course I would slowly acclimate her to lower temperature. At night the unheated tank can go as low as 18 degree.

View attachment 14539

View attachment 14540

Why not remove the male and keep the female with the fry?

 

[Mike Wise]

I agree. Males usually get tired of brooding fry after a time - and then consider them food.

 

[heelllooo]

I don't know, he seems really big for 10L full of driftwood.. He is two times the female size and he is gonna exterminate the shrimp.

I found another temporary "solution". I put a plastic semi rigid divider blocked by the plant. See the picture below. The fish can still go one way or another if they pass by the back of the tank. But the male very rarely goes there and the female stays in her little territory against the left glass.

Since the addition of the divider he has seen her a few time but wasn't able to find her. He seems to have abandoned the idea to attack her for now. He was already less aggressive today.

She stayed all day in the same corner of the tank but seems less stressed and she is eating well. I'm really worried for her. Do apisto usually recover from those type of wound or get sick and die ?

I haven't tried changing how the fry are distributed between the two adult for now. He has around 30-40 and she has around 10. They are doing really well.

I will heavily monitor the tank since I will be home and decide what to do next.

Usually when does the male start to become a threat for the fry ?

 

[heelllooo]

The pic