Wondering what apisto hybrids people have come accross

[Aquatopia]

Hello all- Please don't let the title fool you, I am a purist- lol. I'm just curious what apistogramma species have been hybridized or mixed within the genus. I was thinking of this the other day while watching a agassizzi double red female try to impress an uninterested yet only male in her tank- a trifasciata.

 

[Adoketa]

I have verbal communication with a friend who claims breeders in thailand are peddling Inka x rositae.

 

[aquaticclarity]

I have verbal communication with a friend who claims breeders in thailand are peddling Inka x rositae.

That's possible I'm sure but seems like an odd cross as both fish are in good demand on there own and I don't think they would get more money or a prettier fish from crossing those two fish!

 

[Mike Wise]

It is unlikely that A. trifasciata X A. agassizii spawn would be viable. They belong to 2 entirely different species-groups; not closely enough related to produce survivable offspring. Viable crosses are usually among species in the same species-group. Crosses of which I have seen photos: A. sp. Mariae (commbrae-complex species X by other regani-group species), A. sp. Tefé X A. agassizii, A. sp. Orangeflossen/Orange-stripes (A. bitaeniata X paucisquamis-complex? species), A. macmasteri/A. viejita cross(?) (wild fish), A. sp. Schuppenfleck/Scale-spots (wild cross A. macmasteri X A. hoignei?), and Römer shows several nijsseni-group species crosses in the original description of A. baenschi. And, of course, A. sp. Steel-blue might be a cross. The more I see this fish, the more I wonder ...

 

[Melanochromis]

I have verbal communication with a friend who claims breeders in thailand are peddling Inka x rositae.

LOL. I guess you are referring to me. But it's probably only me. I don't think there are others in Thailand who breed rositae X baenschi.

I got a rositae pair from Hong Kong that turned out to be both male, and no luck of importing another female after trying for almost a year. The rositae males were getting old and I would rather have hybrid offspring than nothing at all. Interestingly, the rositae X baenschi hybrids look very much like a baenschi than a rositae. They are quite pretty really, like a baenschi that shows some green-blue iridescence at certain angles.

Most of these hybrids have a slight deformity in terms of crooked spines. So I won't use them as breeders or encourage anyone else to do so, but I think they are pretty enough to be kept for show.

PS. I do have a "female rositae" from Hong Kong now, but she herself may possibly be a hybrid as well. How confusing...

 

[Melanochromis]

As a side note, the A. agassizii X A. sp. "Tefe" is a common hybrid in Thailand and they aren't even viewed as hybrids because people here think of A. sp. "Tefe" as an agassizii variant.

Remembering what Mike said, I asked everyone who've bred these agassizii x "Tefe" about the deformity and growth rate of the fry. Surprisingly, everyone said their fry grew up like a normal agassizii fry. This is one of the reasons they think it's the same species. Also as another interesting detail, I noticed that most of these hybrids do not show the signature zigzag patterns as seen in Tefe males.

 

[tjudy]

Once upon a time, before the development of protein characterizations and DNA sequencing, conducting a hybridization study was one way to get some clues about evolutionary relationship between two species. So scientists would purposefully cross two species to see if A) the animals recognized each other as mates, B) were close enough in genetic makeup to produce an offspring at all and C) to see if the offspring of the cross were viable. It was thought that if all three of the observations were positive that the fish were very closely related, and possibly the same species (in the days of lumpers). Now we know that hybridization can occur between even distantly related species, and that very many (if not all) fish hybrid offspring are fertile (viable). We also now know that in most cases cichlid hybrid offspring show a certain level of hybrid vigor, and are very aggressive, fast growing and are able out compete the purebred fish in their natural habitats (hybrid vigor is one reason for the great success of the flowerhorn explosion). I find it interesting that the apisto crosses described do not seem to show hybrid vigor.

 

[Melanochromis]

I find it interesting that the apisto crosses described do not seem to show hybrid vigor.

As an anecdote to support that, the Steel Blue strain in Thailand, which has been bred and maintained by a single hobbyist during the past several years, is known to be very slow-growing although they show good colors at a small size. This breeder has crossed his Steel Blue strain with various other species including A. eunotus, A. hoignei, and A. sp. "Apache", which has resulted in his current fish, according to him.

 

[Mike Wise]

Remind me to never buy fish from Thailand.:wink: Just call me a purist.

 

[Melanochromis]

Remind me to never buy fish from Thailand.:wink: Just call me a purist.

I bet it won't be as bad as fish from Hong Kong. The first time I ordered an expensive rositae pair, I got two adult males.

The second time, I specifically ordered two female rositae, and they put them in the same bag. Only one arrived alive.

Then, I bred one of the older rositae male and the remaining "rositae" female. Guess what? They gave me fry that grew up to have red edge on caudal fin in male, which is so not a rositae feature (please correct me if I'm wrong). So, the female is probably a different species or a hybrid. It's really frustrating to order fish from this source. At one point I even thought they did it intentionally to never ship a genuine rositae pair for whatever reason. LOL

PS. and they are very expensive too!!

 

[ste12000]

Im with Mike, you have just put me off buying any Apistos from Thailand!!

Here in Europe Apistogramma hybrids are virtually unheard of, i can only speak of the UK but we are all purists and i dont know of any hybrids being produced by hobbiests, anyone doing what Melanochromis is doing would be shot down by fellow hobbiests. In our opinion it would be better to not own or breed each species rather than cross two distinct species just for the sake of gaining a few fry.

Its a interesting conversation and the hybrid fish shown are attractive! but Melanochromis has just put all(most) Europeans off dealing with Thailand Apistogramma!!

Apistogramma is one of the largest genuses in South America, there are currently over 300 beautiful forms/morphs of Apistogramma, why on earth would Asian hobbiests want to create hybrids??

 

[limchongyu]

I'm an asian hobbyist but I do not understand as well. I do admit I have a soft spot for the fire red variant of agassizii, but definitely not hybrids. However one of the most commonly seen and cheapest apisto one can get in my country is the sp. steel blue.

 

[Aquatopia]

This is definitely a lot of food for thought. I know the possibilities of hybryds exist in all environments- IT's nature. There's something special abou tgetting fish exactly the way they are or were primarily in the wild though. As a hobbyist I also think there's something special about what we as humans can create like the electric green glowfish(tm) tetra whose embryos are injected with something like jellyfish dna- That takes it to a new level! I appreciate those fish somewhat as being an accomplishment for humanity and truthfully, I'd love an electric green glowfish adoketa or arowana just for fun but it wouldn't be for the same reasons I enjoy keeping fish in the first place- living nature in my home. If my apistos interbreed it would be a fun batch of future culls or gifts to little kids- Then again, I have a tank of retarted culls that just wont get eaten by my water cow goby- and they too are fun to watch grow.

 

[Melanochromis]

Guys, you're making it seem I'm the mastermind behind the conspiracy to spread Apistogramma hybrids around the world. I'm NOT !!

I'm not a commercial breeder and other people I mentioned here are all small, insignificant amateur Apistogramma enthusiasts too. We only keep fish for fun in our tiny apartment rooms, and occasionally trade within our very small circle, having no influence on the larger Thai fish breeding industry. Please don't say you're put off from buying any Thai fish by my experience. Serious or not, you're putting me in a difficult position, making such a mere hobbyist like me a target of industry's hatred now

Also, I'd like to point out that if Römer experimented with his nijsseni crosses, why can't I experiment with mine. I'm compiling case study data and pictures hopefully to be published a local fish magazine, adding something to my hobbyist's portfolio

 

[Mike Wise]

I have no problem with hybrids - unless they are sold as purebred species. The problem arises when someone is either dishonest or ignorant of the lineage of their fish. BTW Dr. Römer did crossbreeding experiments to show that the nijsseni-group species were that - separate species - which formed obvious hybrid forms. Once he raised the hybrid forms to maturity (where possible) and recorded them in photos, he killed them and preserved some. This is very different from breeding crosses and then selling them.

 

[Microman]

I totally agree with the majority here especially Teds comments. I have been doing a hybridization study with A.barlowi(Red and White forms) and A.sp.Kelleri for quite some time now with the fertile offspring never being released into the hobby. These experiments are purely to see if or how closely related these two species are and to study the offspring.
Why risk purchasing Apistos from the far east?
Mark...

 

[dpien]

Just to keep this topic going a bit longer to get max. exposure..
I'm with my UK co-hobbyists and friends 100% on this topic. In my humble opinion, we should do everything in our power to try to avoid crossing even different populations of the same species because this is how stunning and unique true species get lost to the hobby. ONE successful cross and distribution by ONE person is enough to flood the market with an untrue representation of the species. This is bad for the (often very complicated yet extremely important) academic/scientific (including conservation) study of the genus as a whole and really does nothing but confuse and misinform everyone.

 

[hedylogus]

by-and-large, I probably agree with the UK camp........but evolution is a natural phenomenon. with or without our interference, it will occur. hybridization is just one such mechanism. right or wrong, in the end, the consumer will drive what's produced, not the academic/scientific community.

 

[dpien]

by-and-large, I probably agree with the UK camp........but evolution is a natural phenomenon. with or without our interference, it will occur. hybridization is just one such mechanism. right or wrong, in the end, the consumer will drive what's produced, not the academic/scientific community.

Apistogramma genus is an extremely complex one, which evolved quite beautifully without human intervention and control. If we allow our consumerism and greed to forever change what nature has provided and to dictate their path of evolution, we have failed as an intellectually evolved species and, most certainly, have no right to call ourselves nature or animal lovers. And don't even get me started on the dog breed debacle (a great example of how human breeding experiments go wrong). Besides, no-one will ever make me view dwarf cichlids as domestic animals which are there to be exploited.

 

[Aquatopia]

There's a whole lot more good than bad that I wouldn't trade for the world which man is directly responsible for in selective breeding- especially in Dogs. Hybrids in some fish can be fun- I think we all can agree though that most dwarf cichlid lovers do hold the purity of their fish in a very high regard. I agree with hedylogus that the consumer will ultimately guide the direction that fish go in to some extent though many of us breed and sell fish and it will also be up to people like us to keep high standards and keep that purity pure.