viejita rio meta or macmasteri?

[electric eel]

i bought this trio of fish as viejita rio meta and i'm wondering if they aren't macmasteri after seeing mikes reply to the woman in the netherlands.the pic doesn't do the male justice but its the best i could do.

 

[Rolo]

Hi,

I think, you're right. They are A. macmasteri.

And I even doubt, that they have ever seen the Rio Meta. ;-)
They look like a "usual" domestic form of A. macmasteri.
But the origin of A. macmasteri is of course Rio Meta drainage, so this "add on" is not helpful. It's just because it sounds better for commercial reasons. ;-) But I don't think, they are wildcaught fishes.

best regards,
Rolo

 

[electric eel]

i'm sure they aren't wild.i was told they were czech bred by the guy i got them from.

 

[Mike Wise]

As usual, Rolo is correct - on everything. When one sees A. viejita next to A. macmasteri the differences are obvious.

 

[electric eel]

thanks Mike!the male is a really beautiful fish with a lot more red then you see.i don't think he liked the camera flash.took about 15 pics to get 2 usable ones.are all the commonly sold forms of "viejita"(cf1,cf2 and rio meta)really all tank bred strains of macmasteri,Mike?i thought that most czech bred strains were easier to work with but i have'nt had any luck.i think the odd female is messing things up.i'm pretty sure he has spawned with the one in the pic at least 3 times but i've never gotten fry.

 

[Gillie]

As usual, Rolo is correct - on everything. When one sees A. viejita next to A. macmasteri the differences are obvious.

It would be nice to be able to even get real Viejita for comparison.

 

[Csababá]

viejita/macmasteri difference pics

Could somebody post 2 pictures (1-1 viejita and macmasteri) where there can be seen the difference after some work? I don't mean a clear difference but close appearance still separable maybe with keys emphasised. I hope it makes sense and thanks in advance.

 

[Rolo]

Hi,

Here's a picture of the "real" A. viejita, aka Rotsaum-Apistogramma:

Have a look at the dark red seam in the dorsal fin. (the german word "Rotsaum" means "red seam".)

Linke & Staeck described three colour morphs of A. viejita in their book.
The Rotsaum-Apistogramma above was called A. viejita 1 and it was found at the type locality of A. viejita.
This fish is obviously not present in the hobby at the moment.

But there's another fish available here in germany. This fish, which was described as the third color morph, A. viejita 3, by Linke & Staeck you can see here.

Other experts doubt, that they are the same species. Koslowski and others call it A. sp. Schwarzkehl. Even if the males look quite similar in black markings and only differ in colour (which is not important for species determination), the females doesn't look the same. Adult females show a black stripe from mouth to anal fin, why they are called "Schwarzkehl" (= black throat).
And genetic studies by Miller & Schliewen (which are not published yet) seems to confirm, that they are two different species.
Nevertheless, this species is also sold as A. viejita (3) here in germany.

regards,
Rolo

 

[Csababá]

Thank you very much, vielen Dank. This colour variation is new for me but I'm quite new, too.

 

[electric eel]

here is a pic of male and female?are the fish at the bottom of this post a male and female or can you tell from these pic's?i took these pictures before i put the leaves and driftwood in the tank cause i knew i'd have trouble getting good pic's afterwards

 

[electric eel]

somebody please help me out here!

 

[Mike Wise]

There were no photos attached to your post.

 

[electric eel]

they are at the beginning of the thread mike.rolo and yourself i.d.'d the fish as macmasteri.i would of reposted but my computer skills are pretty weak(my wife originally posted them

 

[Mike Wise]

OK, now I understand. I'm not really sure what the bottom fish is. If these were wild fish, I would say that the bottom fish is a male. They are color enhanced domestic forms, however, on which females often show more male-like red coloration. Does the bottom fish ever show black pigment on the front edges of the ventral fins? Does it ever present its belly to the male? If it does, then it probably is a female. If it does not, then it probably is a subdominant male.

 

[RAF]

I would say it's a subdominant male... and when I say subdominant I mean it's not even a male trying to pass as a female, but a male with it's propper place in the hierarchy of the group - of two, probably - and tolerated only as that because, either, there are to many females for the dominant to handle and the aquarium is spacious, or there is none.

 

[electric eel]

there are 3 fish in there.the big one(i checked them out closely) is probably twice as big as the other 2(and they are the same age and all wellfed).from reading your post's Mike if i had to guess solely on behavior i would guess one of the other 2 is female and one is a subdominant male.before i moved them to this tank i thought the one spawned(stayed in cave for 4 or 5 days) but i never saw any fry.it(and it did turn sideways and curl its tail and show its belly to the big one) and the big male would chase the other one under the sponge filter and keep it there.i guess i need to watch them and try to remove the odd ball one.maybe then they'll spawn.they are pretty fish and i'd like to get some fry but i read in one of your other posts to someone that macmasteri were not a begginer apisto.i just assumed that since they were czech tank bred that they would'nt be to difficult(i guess thats what i get for thinking)

 

[RAF]

If you have a female and she started to have breeding behaviour at some point she must have looked like the one on this thread:

http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?p=47241#post47241

... so, that one is easy to spot. If there were two females, and one started breeding, the other one would follow closely and try to compete for the males antention, so it would be easy to spot as well.

Both females in a former trio I had were in breeding dress for as long as consecutive 6 months, and only one of them was actually breeding.

 

[Mike Wise]

I find wild A. macmasteri about as easy to breed as most apistos - not as easy as A. cacatuoides or A. borellii, but easier than A. bitaeniata. They are very adaptable to water conditions and breed in harder water than many apistos. The reason I didn't reocommend A. macmasteri for a beginner's fish is because of the extreme territorial aggression seen in many males. There are also people who find that they are sensitive to large water changes. I believe you read the post where I didn't want a beginner to start with this species in a 10 gallon tank. In a 30 or larger tank that is properly decorated, A. macmasteri is a good fish for breeding - even for beginners.

 

[RAF]

Indeed they're relatively easy. Not too demanding in water parameters, wild breed in neutral water, just not too hard. The problem, sometimes, is to wait for the couple to mature and be able to grow the fry. They start eating the eggs, then the fry and you have to be patient in order to get a spawn to be really successful... but when they get it right, there's no stopping them... at least that's my experience with the species.

 

[dw1305]

A. viejita II

Hi all,
Just a quick question, Rolo says, "Linke & Staeck described three colour morphs of A. viejita in their book. The (beautiful) Rotsaum-Apistogramma above was called A. viejita 1 and it was found at the type locality of A. viejita."

Colour morph 3 has also been mentioned, but colour morph 2 in their book was a real stunner with red blotched gill covers, does any-one know if it has ever been re-collected?

Linke & Staeck say "colour morph 2 was collected from a lagoon in the head waters of the Manacacias".

cheers Darrel