Tracking down dead fish

[Borked]

Been lurking around the forum for a while but finally registered. Much respect to to knowledgeable and well mannered people here.

Here is some background info on the tank in question.

It is a community tank with 8 live plants and 4 fake. 3/4 of the tank has rough gravel and 1/4 is fine sand substrate.

Tank
75gal

Filtration
2 AC300, 3 foam blocks, 2 bags fluval peat granuals
1 150gph powerhead with AC polishing filter

Lighting
2 40watt flo strips

Water
Tap (aged) PH 8, GH 9, KH 8
Tank PH 7, AM 0, NI 0, GH 4, KH 5

Inhabitants
1f Pearl Gourami (3 inch)
1f 3 Spot Gourami (3 inch)
1f 3 Opaline Gourami (3 inch)
1m Sparkling Gourami (2 inch)
2 Clown Loachs (2 inch)
1 Black ghost knife (3 inch)
1 Clown pleco (2 inch)
1 Common pleco (5 inch)
1 Dwarf Frog
1f Tateurndina ocellicauda or Peacock Gudgeon (1 inch)
1m Microgeophagus ramirezi or Blue Ram (1.5 inch)
1m A. Cacutuoides 'Double Red' (1.5 inch)
7 Neon Tetras
1 Badis Badis 'Scarlet' (.5 inch)


I hadn't lost a single fish in months and now it seem as though I'm on a spree. I purchased a male A. Panduro (a mistake at this point) a couple of weeks ago. He set up his territory but displaced a male A. Borelii 'blue steel' (cheap hybrid) in the process. I had another A. Borelii that took advantage of the displacement of the 'Blue Steel'.

Both of my A. Boreliis and my A. Panduro are now dead. The A. Cacutuoides is loving his life though. The 'blue steel' vanished for 2 days. I suspected that he was hiding out but I was wrong. I found his body 2 days after I noticed his absense. Then my A. Panduro did the same thing. Dissapeared for 2 days and wound up dead.

Both of these fish were dead in the water for WAY TOO LONG and I know this. I looked and looked and even disturbed the rocks and plants looking for them but to no avail. They were never pulled to the intakes of the filters and were never floating. The just finally turned up half eaten.

Last night my A. Borelii died. I witnessed it so I was able to remove his body immediatly.

I know that if a sick fish dies in your tank and you do not remove it immediatly that other fish are going to get sick. This is the case here.

After every fish death I have made a 20% water change in addition to my weekly 20% change.

I am now seeing signs of sickness in some of the remaining inhabitants but there is no clear cut disease. The symptoms resemble ICH but there are no physical signs of ICH and all of the fish are not showing the same sypmtoms. Some are rubbing, some breathing hard, some gasping at the surface. All of the remaing fish are eating well and moving around in normal fashion. Some of them are showing no signs of ill effects at all. I am worried that the pathogen that has killed is still in there.

Questions

1. Is there any product that I can treat this tank with that will not harm the Loachs, Knife, or frog? I have a qurantine tank set up but the levels are not right yet for a transfer.

2. Who should I transfer to the quarantine tank?

3. Is there a good way of finding dead fish. I am at a loss. When one would not show up at feeding time I would spend hours looking for them, dead or alive.

4. Is there any hope for this tank or would you suggest a full tear down and rebuild?


Thanks in advance,
-Kyle

 

[Neil]

Borked,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

Kyle,
Are you having problems with only the Dwarf Cichlids? Just to let you know, I have had fish die in a tank many times and didn't figure it out until way late with no ill effects. I don't know what is going on in your tank, but I do think that there is a good possibility that the problem was introduced with the last fish or 2 that were added. diseeases are far from my strong suit, but there are a number of members here who know quite alot and can maybe help.
I am moving this thread to Dwarf Cichlid Health because it will probably get more appropriate attention there. Good luck with this annoying problem!
Neil

 

[Randall]

Dear Kyle,

So sorry to learn of your troubles. Reading your post, this situation does seem alarming, indeed.

First off, have you checked the ammonia and nitrite levels? Are you performing your water changes at the same time that you change the filter media, or are you staggering them? Assuming that the ammonia and nitrite levels are okay (but this needs to be confirmed), then we need to look further.

To rule out poisoning, is there a chance that any foreign chemical(s) may have entered the system through a water change, household cleaning, etc.? If so, please do two major water changes over a two day period. If not, then let's look to the new A. panduro addition.

As Neil suggests, it may not be a coincidence that your troubles started when a new fish was added. If the A. panduro was infected with or harbored some patheogen, that would explain, in part, why the other dwarf cichlids were adversely effected first. Some patheogens tend to be species specific. But now it appears that some conspecifics, although not all, are effected as well.

Do the sick fish have clamped fins? I ask because clamped fins, "rubbing" and labored breathing are all parasitic symptoms. Some anti-parasitic medications will harm your loaches and frog. For this reason, don't medicate with anything containing malachite green. I've used products containing formaldehyde with success. Formalin is one such commercial brand.

In the interim, a more aggressive water change regime is probably in order; say 20% every other day until the situation clears up. I wouldn't worry too much about not getting the dead fish out of the tank fast enough. Whatever is in there is in there, until a cure is effected. Removing any dead fish as you can find them should be sufficient.

Hopefully, others here in the Forum will offer you their opinions as well.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Borked]

Thanks to both of you guys for your responses.

Randall,
I've been keeping a log on water quality, water changes, filter cleanings/changes, addition of fish, and such. The ammonia and nitrite levels have not risen for the duration of my fishkilling spree.

I lost the smaller of the clown loachs last night and my last apisto today. The neons gone now as well. The blue ram has been breathing hard for 2 days. His fins are not clamped and his color is sub-par but OK.

The 3 large gouramis, the larger clown loach, both plecos, knife, and peacock gudgeon do not seem to have any signs of illness. I have not seen the scarlet badis for a couple of days and am assuming he's gone. He was smaller than some of the neons so finding his is almost impossible (unless he wants to be seen).

I performed another 20% WC today as I have for the past few days. It seems as though the deaths are slowing down but you never know what tomorrow will bring.

I am suspecting that the A. Panduro was carrying something. The more I thought about the purchase the more it seems like the price and quantity of the fish was too good to be true. I have some formalin but it is the pond formulation. I'm not sure if the formula is any diffterent for the pond packaging but I will check into it. I use the pond formula of stress coat in place of the aquarium formula. The patent info and dosing is the same but the pond variety is not as oily and dilutes quicker IME. I will check into the formalin info as I will not have the chance to get to the LFS for a few days.

Thanks you for replys. I will keep you updated.
Cheers,
-Kyle


EDIT:

The formalin I have is:
Formaldehyde 37%
Methanol 6-13%
Water 50-57%

Dosage:
2.5ml/50gal day 1
5ml/50gal day 3 and 5

Would you suggest using this product?
TIA

 

[Randall]

Formalin

Dear Kyle,

As far as I know, it's okay to use pond variety Formalin in freshwater aquaria, providing the dosage is correct. It's been my experience, however, that Formalin loses it potency over time, if not kept refrigerated. So if your Formalin is not fresh, I'd recommend getting yourself another bottle.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Anonymous]

Would you suggest using this product?
TIA

Hi,

I cannot have a diagnostic for your fish's deaths, so I'm not sure what you should treat if you must treat.

I do not think that treating a tank is a good goal. One should treat a diagnosed pathology on a sick fish. I understand very well that you'd like to save your fishes, but Formalin is not a toy cure and can certainly have adverse effects possibly leading to fish death especially if it's already sick.

Water change and low diet to lower nitrates should help (low nitrites does not mean low nitrates) IMO, and ammonia and nitrites are rarely problematic but nitrates are very often high especially in lightly planted, populated "well established" tanks. Know the one year tank syndrom ?

Treating a tank is possible but can be a bomb for healthy fishes that may not save sick ones.

FWIW

colin

 

[coenga]

not so anonymous

sorry guys, I've been unlogged against my will while posting the last message.

colin

 

[Borked]

I REALLY need to get some new pond products! The formalin I have on hand has never been opened but it expired 3 years ago. Nice eh?

My wife and I take care of koi & goldfish ponds where we work (plant and tree nursery) and we have acess to all sorts of pond supplies but no aquarium products. We have a small pond at home and have never had to do anything other than WC's and cleanings. So all of the products I have around here have never been used (other than stress coat and salt). All of the dusty and expired products are now out with the trash. Thanks for making me check, Randall!

Back to the tank:
I have not treated the tank with anything other than 1tsp salt per 5gal. I have never used any salt in the tank so I chose a low doseage. The introduction of it and 20% WC's every other day seems to have halted the pathogen.

All of the dwarfs are gone but everyone that is left is doing well. I have been feeding lightly since the onset of the illness and will continue to do so until I am sure that it is gone (probably another week or two without any deaths or signs of stress). I will also maintain 20% WC's every other day, as suggested, for the next 6 days. I will then cut the WC's back to every third day for a week. Then back to the weekly schedule. Does this sound good or would anyone suggest a different schedule?

I now have another 10gal tank cycling that I will be using for a pair of dwarfs in about a month. I have decided to keep the 75gal as a community tank only and leave the dwarfs to their own tank from now on. I might throw a ram in there at some point for some added color though.

Colin,
The "one year tank syndrom" you spoke of. What exactly is it and how can one prevent it from occuring?

Also, my tank specs are posted above. What WC, filter cleaning, gravel vac, etc., schedule should I maintain for the best possible water quality in the 75gal community tank? The water maintains a PH of 6.8-7.2, GH of 4-5, and KH of 5.


thanks a million.
Cheers,
-Kyle

 

[coenga]

Colin,
The "one year tank syndrom" you spoke of. What exactly is it and how can one prevent it from occuring?

Hi,

It is a slow growing nitrate intoxication.
I did not read your nitrates check about your tank.
Nitrates are the end metabolit of azote in a tank.

azote is introduced with food (proteins is the major diet of your fish). After excretion it goes to ammonia which is very labile, transformed by biological filter in nitrites, less labile, which is transformed in nitrates which is in a dead end.
Nitrates are dissipated by WC with low nitrate water and used by plants and algae.
Nitrates are toxic for fish when they go upper than say 50-100. But if the increase is very low, fish can tolerate the toxicity. In a new tank with a slow increase of nitrates, the fish seem to live happily, but nitrates can reach 100, 150 or even 200.

after one year nitrates are stabilized at a high level every thing is ok and hoobyist is happy but the tank is on a dangerous invisible edge.
It happens that algae are high or that the hobbyist wants new fishes. so he treats algae with a new toxic in the tank or introduce fishes unused to high nitrates levels. then new fish dies or anti algae toxin kills the biofilter and then come the fall on the wrong side of the edge. Balance is broken and opportunictic pathologies can occur, old fishes can't withstand the crash and only the more sturdy survive.

That is the one year tank syndrom.

Check the nitrates, forget ammonia and nitrites. There are symptoms for ammonia and nitrites intoxication, none for nitrates'.

Preventing is good water quality obtained by WC, low fish population and no overfeeding, high plantation.

My two eurocents,

regards.

 

[farm41]

'One year tank syndrome' sounds like a 'very poor' or 'no maintenence' program.

Even a well planted tank needs regular water changes, I do 50% per week on all my tanks, even my heavily planted tanks.

Water is cheap, and regular water changes are the best way to healthy fish.

 

[aspen]

>>'Water is cheap, and regular water changes are the best way to healthy fish.'

water changes will often allow fish to live through epidemics, they would not live through otherwise. by diluting the pathogens, we give the fish a chance to fight their way through them. this is only possible, if water changes are done properly. it may seem too obvious, but getting a water change regime that works for the fish is important, and will relate to your original water parms. aging your water before changing, makes for much easier changes, ime.

rick

 

[vancat]

Dead bodies

your plecos probably ate the dead fish.

 

[farm41]

I guess I am kind of lucky on the water change thing. I have well water, and the Ph of my well water is only 2 tenths lower than my tank water, so I just blast it right in with the python.