Too many breeding attempts??

[Nimue]

Hey guys!

I got a pair of ramirezis a couple of weeks ago. Since then they tried to breed three times, that´s almost every second week. Now I am worried that the female gets literally wasted away as the spawning process is very exhausting - and its a very small Mom, too.
Now, do I have to separate the pair or put them on a diet in order to prevent this???? By the bye the fry never hatched as the parents ate the eggs (or perhaps the ph was too high, I don´t know).

Any suggestions would be welcome, thank you.
Greetings,
Birgit

 

[Randall]

Breeding Mikrogeophagus ramirezi

Hello Birgit,

If you're worried that your little female is getting too exhausted, you can try lowering the temperature. Mikrogeophagus ramirezi is a warm water fish that generally breed in higher temperatures. Another alternative is to soften your water for a successful spawning. Viable M. ramirezi eggs generally require low carbonate levels for proper fertilization and development. If your water is too hard, this might explain why the breeding attempts are not successful.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Nimue]

Breeding experience?

Hi Randall,
thank you for your advice. I´ll try to lower the temperature slowly. At the moment I keep them at 26*C. I haven´t found a method yet to lower the ph level continually (now it´s at 7,2-7,4; GH = 8), exept for using rain-water (which has a freezing 8-10*C temperature here and has to be mixed with warmer tubwater). One thing to ask: Is it possible that the female eats the newly hatched fish because she thinks this is food?? And if I see some fry alive one day, do I have to move the parents immediately to another tank??


Greetings,
Birgit

 

[Randall]

Breeding Mikrogeophagus ramirezi

Hello Birgit,

Thank you for your message.

One of the most interesting things about cichlids is their broodcare, so it would be a shame to miss this experience. When your Mikrogeophagus ramirezi produce free-swimming fry, I'd leave them with the parents. The parents do a much better job of caring for their young than we can.

From your last post, I don't think that your female sees her eggs as food. A more logical explanation for the egg eating is that your water measures at GH 8. This is much too hard to allow for proper egg fertilization and development. Your female doesn't eat her eggs because she's hungry, she eats them because they are not developing properly, due to the hard water. If you have a means of obtaining softer water (i.e. GH 3), there is a much better chance for a successful spawning.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Z Man]

I sorry to butt in here but are you positive that you have a male? If so, I for one have never had ANY success with my Ram pairs raising their own fry. I would suggest that you remove either the eggs or the pair to another tank. And YES, the water has to be very soft for the eggs to hatch.

 

[Nimue]

Soft water

Hi Randall, hi Z-Man

thank you for your advice. Z-Man, I am quite positive that I do have a male and a female fish. The female is much smaller and shows a pretty distinctive red belly. They also take parts when guarding their eggs.
So I suppose you are right when you say that our tub-water is too hard for the eggs to fertilize.
I tested the rain-water from our cistern and the test-stripe shows a Gh under 3 d (Kh=0-3d; ph= 7,2-7,4. Would that be sufficient?? Should I try to lower the Ph-lewel, too?

Greetings,
Birgit

 

[Randall]

Breeding Mikrogeophagus ramirezi

Hello Birgit,

I've experienced success with soft water that is slightly alkaline. You might give it a try.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Nimue]

Ram illness

Hey everybody!

My rams did it again: another breeding attempt!!! However this time it is a pretty bad thing, too, as the male is severely ill and I don´t know if I can rescue him. Well some days ago I tried to lower the temperature slowly in order to keep them from breeding. To no awail. On saturday there were newly laid eggs on the same white stone as always. At the same time the male stopped eating and kept for himself. I had a closer look. He obviously developed an illness called "Lochkrankheit" in German. Roughly translated "hole sickness". This is due to a lack of vitamin D (says the internet). Well he has a nasty white hole on one side of his head and gets weaker and weaker. I put vitamin D pills (you just get stuff here for humans...) in the water and hope... but he´s already pretty weak.
The female still guards the eggs every now and then but is obviously distracted. This time the eggs did not disappear over night. So, do you think I should separate them or rather give up?? They did not develop fungus. Does the fry hatch at all in bad water conditions? (GH is lower now, however I had to add some anti-infection stuff for the male). And finally will one single Mom be able to care for them???

Sad greetings
Birgit

 

[Randall]

Hexamita

Hello Birgit,

Oh you poor thing, this is awful! Hole-in-the-head (Hexamita) disease is linked to the patheogen Spironucleus (an intestinal parasite) and is supposed to be brought on by poor water quality. With your excellent attention to water, however, this is unlikely, in this case. The treatment is Metronidazole added to the water or feed to the afflicted fish via its food or both. I don't know if adding vitamin D will make any difference. The disease is contagious but is often cichlid specific.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[tjd]

Birgit,

While it is intriguing to see the interactions between the male and female Rams while raising their young, I often leave a single parent to raise the fry. For one of my pairs I had a female that would regularly eat the fry once they hatched. Once I realized this I started removing her after the eggs were laid and started having broods survive. It was interesting as the male had wised up to this before I did and while during their first few spawning attempts shared responsibilities, later he took sole care once the eggs were laid attempting to relegate her to a far corner.

In your situation, since the eggs did not disappear with the male under the weather, it is possible he is the culprit for them disappearing. If he hopefully survives you might want to try separating/removing him after the eggs are laid in the future. A single parent should do fine raising the brood.

I don't have any experience with what effect Metronidazole will have on egg and fry development.

Tom

 

[Nimue]

Treatment

Hi Randall,

thank you for your advice. I try to get Metronidazole from the pharmacy ASAP. However I fear that the fish will not survive the next couple of hours.
Bad enough, fishkeepers here (I looked up a few internet sites) are all convinced that Hexameta is due to a lack of vitamins, poor water and exhaustion - and has absolutely nothing to do with parasites.

I am very sorry that the fish is going to die only because I tried the wrong treatment, assuming there are no parasites involved. Poor bugger. :frown:
So this is contagious, too?

Greetings,
Birgit

 

[Nimue]

Sad ending

Hi Tom, hi Randall,

thank you for your informative and kind answers.
However, I have to tell you it all ended pretty sad: the male died last night and the female ate the eggs in the end.
I desperately tried to get Metronidazole in the pharmacy yesterday evening. However they would not sell it. It requires a doctor´s prescription here, so I will never be able to get it (of course the doctor will not prescribe anything to me as I am not ill). This is quite infuriating...

Nevertheless thanks again for the strong support.

Greetings,
Birgit

 

[Randall]

Hexamitia

Hello Birgit,

So sorry to read about your poor fish. To ensure that this does not happen again, it may be a good idea to break down the tank, thoroughly clean everything, and start over.

Ive never discussed Hexamita with any German hobbyists, but here are the prevailing thoughts. Hexamita used to be confused with Spironucleus vortens. Both patheogens are different and belong to the Order Diplomonadida and the Family Hexamitidae. S. vortens is a parasite, is even found in healthy fish, and is usually not a problem. In times of stress, however, (i.e. poor water quality, transport, poor diet, disease, etc.) the parasite multiplies in the intestines. The fish then becomes sick and, if not treated, dies. The "cure" is metronidazole, either in food form or added directly to the water, or both. The medication does not kill all of the parasite, but it controls it.

In the U.S. metronidazole requires a prescription too but is also available packaged for the aquarium trade at stores that sell tropical fish.

I hope this information helps you out.

All the best,

Randall Kohn

 

[Nimue]

Hexamita treatment

Hi Randall,

thanks for the information. I keep that in mind and will be making a new start with my small tank. I did a bit of reading in the internet. If this is of interest to you, it seems that the university of Düsseldorf did develop a new treatment against Hexamita and also Spironucleus. It´s called "Flagellol" and is supposed to be awailable on the free market since March 2005.
"eSHa Hexamita" seems to be another product awailable. It´s supposed to cure Octomitus and the "discus-illness" (sorry I can´t translate this properly).
As both products are not sold in the shops in town (it´s a really pretty small town where vets tell you to buy another fish instead of trying to cure it) I´ll definitely order one of these two at some internet shop.

Greetings,
Birgit

PS: I don´t know how the situation is in the U.S., but in Germany you have to be pretty careful buying rams. This is not only mine but also other fish-keepers experience that rams from German tank shops almost always get ill only a few days after you bring them home. They usually get more or less severe forms of Ichtyo.... and tend to infect all other fish.
So did mine, but I cured them. And after they started to breed and feed well I thought myself on the secure side. Well now I know better.

 

[Randall]

Metronidazole

Hello Birgit,

Glad that you found some information on the Internet. Flagyl is the commercial brand name for metronidazole. They are the same thing!

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[tjd]

Birgit,

Sorry to hear that your male did not make it. The situation you mention regarding their condition is pretty much the same in the U.S. In my area close to half the LFSs will not carry rams because they are considered too sickly and sensitive to changes.

I would have expected Germany to have some of the hardier rams. A german developed stain is supposed to be hardier than most.

Tom

 

[Nimue]

German rams tougher?

Hi Tom,

I fear it`s only a rumour that rams bred in Germany are tougher than others.
As far as I know the rams and all the other sweetwater fish you get here (north Hessia) in the tank shops come from Czechoslovakia. And there either the fish are bred in completely sterile conditions, that is in tanks without any bacteria (which makes them double sensitive to the mix of bacteria in most freshwater tanks) or they are imported.
The only way to get some physically solid rams would be to buy them from a private person. However, I don´t know anybody who was able to raise a group of fry here. In bigger towns one might have more luck.
And finally, I learned that most rams sold show a very poor breeding behaviour. So you have to let them try a few times anyway...
Were you able to raise some fry once????

Best wishes,
Birgit

 

[tjd]

Once I figured out their needs (some of my pairs behave differently then others) and gave them a chance to get things straight I have had success. My issue then became finding enough room to house and grow the fry.

Finding good quality rams is difficult though. I traveled close to 175km the other day to pickup some to diversify my breeding stock.

Keep with it and you will eventually have success.

Tom

 

[smulemor]

Sorry to hear about your fisk that died, i know people often say "it`s just a fish" but some of us aquariumaddicts often get attached to our wetpets

The hardiness of rams discussion is quite interessting to read because here in Norway i have seen a generally tough fish that adapts well to a community tank.
Maybe the bolivian ram that i have is a bit tougher but most of the other ram`s i see for sale are also in good condition.
The poor frycare I`ve been told comes from the fact that they have been raised without their parents, is this right ??

I`m thinking of setting up a new tank and have a pair of Ramirezis in this to easier see the difference between the bolivian and the ramirezi... i just need to dig up the space for the tank first

 

[Nimue]

Ram breeding behaviour

Hi Smulemor,

I think you`re right. Bolivian rams are a bit hardier than ramirezis. I do keep two Bolivian rams in my bigger tank. They are very peaceful fish, indeed.
And they do get tame...
Do you know how to figure out the sexes?? I thought I had a pair, but my male fish is not interested at all in the "female".
Do you know if suppressed male Bolivian rams take on the colouring of a female??? Do they breed at all in a community tank, or is it that they need certain water conditions to be fulfilled to couple up???


Greetings,
Birgit