T. candidi aggression

[jaeger222002]

Hi all,


I just recently bought a few of these buggers from a local store here and had a few questions. They are very young and for the life of me seem impossible to sex at this size. I bought two fish a week ago and after a two days in the tanks I thought I had bought two females. I went back and grabbed one more (which I believed to be a male) and put him in the tank. The tank is a 10g with lots of wood, java moss, and a couple of caves. I figured since they were young this would be fine until I could be sure of the sexes. Apparently I have guessed wrong. After two peaceful days things have turned south. The two fish I had bought originally and believed to be females have been relentlessly pursuing the third fish around the tank not giving him a moments peace. I finally had to pull it b/c I didn't think he would last another day.

I figure that either a) I sexed them wrong and I have more males than I thought or b) the females are really aggressive. The fish are right around an inch long.

Is this type of aggression normal? Will young males have the spade-shaped tail. Both fish whom have become the aggressors have rounded caudal fins but have some red in the tail and the dorsal fin.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Brad

 

[bigbird]

Hello Jaeger,

They are very young at this stage. Males a super aggresive, but do well in a harem. My suggestion would be to take out all fish, re-do or move all of the structures etc and redesign the aquascape. Make sure plenty of hidding spots, caves, plants etc and I mean plenty. Then put fish back in. From what you are describing it seems you have 2Males and 1femal. This is not ideal.
Some Aquarist, believe in the overpopulating theory. IE 4males 10Females, butthe best is 1m 3f
http://www.thedigitalfishroom.com/articles/T.candidi.shtml
Also search with Google, plenty from this forum have also posted. Hope you have success. Send us some pics
This web page will give you as well a lot of details.
They are stunning fish.
Hope this helps cheers

 

[jaeger222002]

Thanks for the info bigbird. Are these fish sexable at this size? The fish that is getting bulllied the most is the largest of the three. His pelvic and anal fin are quite long compared to the other two but his tail had been damaged in the tank at the store so that was no help. I really thought this was the one fish I could be sure of. Maybe I have all males. Who knows? I guess my best course of action is to put the third fish in another tank and let them grow a bit to see what is really going on here. Thansk for all the help!

Brad

 

[bigbird]

Gday Brad,

Any chance of posting photos for us to have a look at ?
How big are the fish that you bought ? DO you have a 20 or 30G tank to put them in, this gives them more room and individual territory.
I would redecorate the tank from top to bottom, lots of rocks, hidding places, plants etc, then put all three back and just observe what happens. The pecking order is normal, but I guess you would have nothing to loose. And I mean fill tank up with lots of hidding places. It is difficult to asses without seeing. Good luck any and keep us informed. cheers jan-kurt

 

[Apistomaster]

I recommend at least a 36-inch long tank for a trio of T. candidi.
It is sometimes useful to consider Apistogramma and their relatives to be like fresh water equivalents of reef Damsel Fish. Small fish with big ideas.

 

[jaeger222002]

I had the three juveniles in a ten gallon. I feel that I have made a grave mistake in assuming that because they were so young there wouldn't be too many problems. I have moved one of the fish to a 20L with some borellii right now until I can get another 20L going for these fish.

I will try to get picks of these fish fish as soon as I can but that could be really hard as they spend a significant amount of time under wood.

Thamks for all of the help on here. Its nice to know that those who have been through it before are willing to help.

Brad

 

[freshwaterfishfan]

I once bred a wild pair in a 5 gallon tank with lots of cover(including leaves). But I did give the male/female a steady supply of guppies to kill. Are yours wild caught? Good luck with them.

 

[Apistomaster]

It seems to me tht if you cannot tell the sexes apart yet it can only be for one of two reasons.
1. Too young to sex.
2. All sexes are the same.
I believe SA Dwarf Cichlids are able to tell their sibling sexes from almost the very beginning of free swimming. Based on that assumption, I always cover the bottom of my fry tanks with the hollow ceramic cylinders to provide secure hides and break up line of sight to reduce the effect of the more aggressive males on the females. This aggression, unchecked, is the cause of many reports of skewed sex ratios among tank raised fish in favor of the males. My hypothesis is that this factor, more than any other, effects the final ratio between the sexes of fish that survive to maturity.
Since implementing the use of these hides from the beginning of fry independence from the care of the parents, I stopped observing severely skewed sex ratios. One thing that I should make clear is that I raise more fry in less volume than is generally recommended. The more space you can provide the less intense the levels of aggression will be.

 

[Zack Wilson]

Well, that's kinda cool. I don't know if I've ever seen one of my articles referenced before....course now I see I need to go back and edit some typos...

From experience, I have seen males show territoriality from a young age, prior to being obviously sexable (ie extended finnage and developed spear tail). They usually don't start sexing out till a little over an inch, if I recall. Eventually the males develop a very extended set of rays in the middle of the caudal which grows longer with age, but initially this can be hard to see, and some females have a *slightly* pointed caudal, though not extremely. Generally speaking, I haven't usually seen any damage come of their displaying and chasing, but this shouldbe watched.

Sadly, I no longer have my colony. I had the makings of a great candidi colony, but one time when I left on business for a few days, I came back to find my entire rack of 9 tanks in the basement had tipped forward and spilled the contents on the basemen floor. Still a mystery how. I probably had over 150 candidi in that rack, most at or near adulthood. Reading my article makes me want to get them again, but I've resisted because I'm holding out for some good wild stock. I've seen too many overbred European candidi lately, and if I get into them again, I'm going to hold out for some really good stock.

I hope you have good luck with yours and figure them out. They're worth the investment and time to keep. One of the most entertaining dwarfs I've had.

 

[jaeger222002]

Thanks Zack and thanks to everyone who has responded. I do have an update on the situation. Sadly, the third fish that was introduced (a male) was killed. I removed him but not in time. There is now a peace in the tank. The two fish I originally bought I thought were a pair but then thought maybe females so I bought the third fish. One of the fish is clearly developing a spade tail and the larger (hopefully female) still has a very rounded caudal fin). They do some jostling over hiding spots but are regularly feeding together. The male always has his fins displayed and the "female" keeps her tail closed most of the time. I am keeping my fingers crossed that this is a pair as the store I bought them from is running out of stock fast.

I was also told that these are wild fish and they will only eat live foods so far so that seems likely.

Brad

 

[bigbird]

Morning,

Sorry for the loss. Any chance you can post photos for us to ponder ?
cheers Jan-kurt

 

[jaeger222002]

I have added links to some of the photos I have managed in the last few hours. This is my first attempt at posting pictures so hope it works. Sorry for the poor pics. I have a digital camera and have no idea how to get good fish shoys with it (if it is even possible). I have yet to get a picture of the fish I believe to be female but I have little doubt that this is a male. For any one wondering the tank is a 10G with a pH of 6 and a GH <1.

Brad

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/jaeger222002/DSCN0022.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/jaeger222002/DSCN0025.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/jaeger222002/DSCN0033.jpg

 

[peterK]

Please believe me, you have not a lot of wood. For such agrressive species you have to add more wood plants or something like that for hiding places. On the both pics I could see young male(s).

 

[Zack Wilson]

I would have to agree. Those pics look like a young male. The front edge of the dorsal is pretty squared, and the tail is getting the signs of pattern and shape of a male. Looks like they're going to be beautiful fish.

It wouldn't be bad to provide some more cave structures in the tank and use the driftwood to break up the sight lines a little more. If you have a pair, I wouldn't expect too much violence, but until the female is ready to breed you will want to give her refuge from the male's chasing. I never observed any extreme aggression, but my experiences may not have been typical. Either way, some extra structure can't hurt.

Good luck!

 

[jaeger222002]

Thanks for the input guys. I actually have a few potted plants, two coconut caves, and another piece of driftwood that goes in the tank but i had removed them for the time being in case I needed to catch another fish. I did a water change yesterday and surprisingly both fish seem fine with it. I have seen them out feeding together several times in the sand away from the cover. There is some chasing going on and it usually happens when a fish stumbles into the hiding spot of another. I am still trying to get a picture of the other fish. The male seems to be very cooperative and the other fish not so much. I'll post a pic when I finally get one.

Brad

 

[jaeger222002]

Well, I have added more plants, wood, and a couple of caves. Most of the aggression stopped with the removal of the third fish. However, there is still a bit of chasing when one fish runs into the other. Other times I see them feeding together with no problems. I have posted a coupl of links to photos of the fish I feel is a female. This fish is slightly larger than the fish in the previous photos (the male). This fish is also the more aggressive of the two and is the one doing all the chasing. Sorry about the crappy photos but 1) I am not good at taking fish photos and 2) this fish is really shy when I get near the tank.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/jaeger222002/DSCN0072.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/jaeger222002/DSCN0068.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/jaeger222002/DSCN0066.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/jaeger222002/DSCN0061.jpg

Regards,

Brad

 

[Apistomaster]

I hate to hear of major disasters, they strike too close to home. Having a rack full of T. candidi fail is a huge catastrophe.

Here I am this morning only mad because I began filling my two connected 55 gal barrels with RO water but forgot to make sure the faucet on one barrel was closed. Woke up to about 50 gal of RO flooding the kitchen and bathroom.
Oh well, I bet my RO is now putting out water that is very pure now.

I want to try those guys out someday. I have set up six 40 gal breeder tanks and a male with three females should work in one of those. I just set up a pair of Dicrossus filamentosus to see if using a larger tank works out better for me than the 20 Longs I've tried to date. I think giving SA dwarfs all the room you can is only going to help control territorial aggression.

 

[Riley]

Maybe some dither fish? I know a sweet place to get some Ember tetras.

 

[Zack Wilson]

Based on those pictures I couldn't tell you for sure what you have. It *could* be a female, but I can't say with any certainty looking at the pics. The tail doesn't appear to have any extensions developing and if it's the larger fish, this could be a good sign, but maybe not. Feed the heck out of them and make them fat. If it's a female, you'll know soon enough.

Sorry to hear about the RO issues Apistomaster, but I can quite relate. I regularly overflow my RO reservoirs, though it's at least not so bad since it's in the basement. I also have an annoying tendency to try and multitask while filling tanks and run into trouble there too.

...I've generally had better success with filamentosus in harem settings myself. Even if the male didn't spawn with all the females, or even more than one, having more females resulted in better success in getting spawns. From there the mothers are usually pretty good and raise the fry up without issues, though I did tend to remove non-participants after spawning. Lower temps also help to get larger fry which can take bbs right away. Sorry, don't mean to divert the thread.

 

[jaeger222002]

I am sure that it is a female. The other fish has grown quite a tail on it and the color is real nice. It has a yellow anal fin which looks really sweet. My how things can change though. The two fish will display at each other but usually ends with the male taking a swipe at the female. This is completely opposite from how things started. The male was pursuing her around the tank constantly. I did add some of those tetras (neat little buggers) and the male is going at thm now so it seems to have stemmed his attacks on the female. I have added a third cave, leaves, and Java Moss to almost the whole bottom of the tank to provide hiding spots. I was really unprepared for how aggressive this little fish could be. I am awaiting the arrival of some almond leaves as well to provide more cover and nesting sites (hopefully). Thanks to everyone who has chimed in with help.


Brad