Older vs. Younger fry

[krudolph]

I have a female and her fry in a tank and recently two larger fry from a previous batch popped up. They seem very aggressive with the new fry and look like wolves stalking them. The female does her best to run them off. I presume they are just coming in because they are coming after the food which I put near the fry? I do try to put food on the other end to distract them, but they usually make their way back.

Should I be concerned that they will harm the younger fry? I have not seen them actually catch one, but they go after them pretty aggressively. My thought was they would be okay. The newer fry are around 5 weeks old.

It would be a royal pain to get them out of the heavily planted and a lot of driftwood tank. Plus, I don't have a good place to keep them at this time.

 

[gerald]

That's why most cichlid mothers drive away the older kids when they re-spawn (except some Tanganyikans). Try feeding several times per day so the bigger kids never get hungry, and the little kids can get enough to grow.

 

[krudolph]

Thanks Gerald. I work for a living, but I do feed them in the AM before I leave and twice in the PM. I was just wondering if they would actually harm them. It is probably just an aggressive charge, but they are also more than twice the size and could easily take them out if they wanted to. When I first put my new Caca's in the tank, I had just taken out some guppies that were fillers in the new tank until they arrived. Well the mom put out a dozen or so fry before I pulled her out and I thought for sure the caca would have a welcome meal. They never did and the fry actually got big enough to start competing for food, so I yanked them. So, I don't think they would eat the fry, but was curious if other experienced breeders have concerns they would harm them. One cornered a small fry and I thought he was history, but mom came to the rescue.

I would prefer to leave the two older sibblings in the tank and would imagine in another month they would be out of danger. Having lost the mom's sister (I must has scared here while cleaning the tank and did not find her on the floor until it was too late), I am anxious for this batch to make it. The female has coloring on all five fins and you don't see that very often and would hate to not get a batch out before anything could happen to her.

 

[MickeM]

Hi krudolph..

I´ve been in the same situation only a few days ago.. Feels really good now..!! Got 10-15 juveniles out of my largest Apisto tank + The satisfaction to see a female not focusing on hunting "her own". Another batch is soon coming out from her cococave I hope..

Try to use 2 nets(?) if you want to catch them (one standing still- one chasing ), or use one hand to chase them into the net..
If you go after them with only one net it will be almost impossible to get them!!

If you don`t have a second tank at the moment, you might be entertained if getting an extra, small(??) shrimp+plant tank??
Crystal Red shrimps are nice to keep with Apisto juveniles( Ap-minimumsize approx.1cm ), and you will then have a clean, nice planted tank to enjoy.. Just make sure to have some roots or caves and plants for the shrimps to hide when Apistos are growing up..
It`s an easy way to keep them..

/MickeM

 

[Mike Wise]

Older fry will attack & eat younger fry at times. In your planted tank, is there any way to put in a partition? If you can, separate the larger fry from the smaller. Then make a bottle fish trap to catch the larger fry. Otherwise all you can do is let Nature take its course.

 

[krudolph]

Thanks Micke, but I think I have already pushing my limits on tanks, well at least as far as my spouse is concerned. It might be easier to catch the younger ones than the two older sibblings.

Mike, unfortunately I have some long pieces of driftwood which does not allow for partitioning. I am thinking they are just darting in for the food and just charging the fry to fend them off for food. I haven't seen he actually catch one, but realize I am only looking at the tank for a small amount of the time. I will try to get a count of the fry and if the numbers start dropping I will have to do somthing drastic. I could live with nature culling one or two to leave them as is.....

 

[gerald]

Add food at both ends of the tank. Feed the side away from the younger kids first, so the older kids go to that end, then squirt food to the younger kids' end. Does that make sense?

quote="krudolph, post: 84905, member: 12064"] I am thinking they are just darting in for the food and just charging the fry to fend them off for food. ...[/quote]

 

[krudolph]

Thanks Gerald. Yes, I put food at the other end, but as you can imagine, they are curious about what they missing on the other end. Actually, they don't even eat the fry food, as the fry are still eating microworms, they just want what I give the mom. They just happen to be near mom.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Crystal Red shrimps are nice to keep with Apisto juveniles

I'd worry about this, Apistogramma cacatuoides are very keen on shrimps once they get a taste for them, and I'd expect them to eat the shrimplets.

There might also be a temperature issue, as Crystal Red Shrimps are happier at cooler temperatures.

cheers Darrel

 

[MickeM]

Hi Darrel + all

You are absolutely true about the shrimplets...!!

If the Apistos are in the juvenile size (1-3cm) it will work OK in most cases.
I´ve kept both growing Apistos with small (trifasciata) and big mouths (baenschi) in tanks with Cr.Red/Black shrimps (1-3cm) without any problems.
(as long as the tank is provided with some hiding places!! BTW..,I have not tried this in pH 5 water and can`t recommend it)

I think the temperature always matter for any fish/others when you raise it over 27-28 Celsius.. (Kept my Apisto+shrimp combo in 22-26 C.. In summertime..<28C + less amount of food+ changing water more often, if needed)
If keeing Apistos in warmer temp- I wouldn`t do it any longer period than 1-2 months!! (Due to health +age issue)

Would be interesting to hear what temp you all maintain for your Apistos in!!??

Since this example was concerning juveniles Apistos , I wanted to share one option to keep them.
Without no further thougts of breeding the shrimps..)) ..or mixing with mature Apistos..
However.. many times mixing species might work...as long as one put the smallest fish/other in first..+ same water parameters for these species..

This shows the complexity from situation to situation in keeping aquarium tanks/species...!
(Might even be some Apistos that are "only" feeding on shrimps????)

Cheers,

MickeM

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I tend to keep all the tanks at 25- 28oC, that way I don't have to adjust the temperature when I have fry (because of skewed gender ratios at lower or higher temperatures). I tend to leave the fry in the tank with the female until they are quite large (I keep very complex, weedy tanks which makes removal difficult, but provides a lot of food/hiding places).

None of my Apistogramma have lived longer than 4 years, and a lot of my males have only managed 2 - 2 1/2 years.

Might even be some Apistos that are "only" feeding on shrimps????

Have a look at this thread: <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/frozen-food-for-sub-adults.17371/>.

cheers Darrel

 

[regani]

I keep mine between 24C and ~33C. The lower temp is the heater setting and the higher one what the tanks get up to in the middle of summer (no aircon in the garage).
Some tanks don't have heating and drop to about 17-18C over night. I keep borellii and trifasciata in those.

 

[MickeM]

In order to get more equal gender numbers, I`m finally about to raise the temp in some Apisto tanks. (26 C or so)

It will probably generate better plant growth too.(Better dissolvement of nutritients in the soil!!??-->more nutritients availible/ increased bacterial activity in the soil + increased "metabolism"/photosynthesis effect in tropical plants??)
At least that`s my experience with Echinodorus..
( Can be difficult if using no heaters in Sweden at winter time!!, ...in older houses!! )

Great threads about food Darrel..!! Many thanks!!

Some friends of mine also recommend to breed Collembola as livefood to fishes.(DartFrogFood ??) They say it`s good in nutricients.
Might be a few weeks before Apistos actually know how to eat them??, but Ap.hongsloi ate them.. when "learning" by some other fishes..
There`s also one kind of Pea-plant-eating "Flea" that seem to be working as live fish food..

Moina is another common live food according to killi breeders..!!

All these insects/others takes some effort+time to breed, but almost everything looks difficult until you know how to do it !!

 

[krudolph]

Not sure if anyone remembers my earlier post (lol), but I see I actually have three older siblings. One is really getting big fast. Anyway, I spent some time watching them and actually saw a newer fry swim right in the middle of all three of them (brave soul) and they totally ignored him. In fact, they started chasing each other. Anyway, I am thrilled to get this batch this far along. I attest that to micro worms. They really like the little wigglers.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Some friends of mine also recommend to breed Collembola as livefood to fishes.(DartFrogFood ??) They say it`s good in nutricients. Might be a few weeks before Apistos actually know how to eat them??

I've got Collembola (Springtails) in some of my Grindal worm cultures, but they float so I've never seen the Apistogramma eat them, although Chocolate Gourami etc do.

There`s also one kind of Pea-plant-eating "Flea" that seem to be working as live fish food..

Aphids? I've fed these to Hatchet fish etc. and they usually prove popular.

cheers Darrel

 

[MickeM]

Hi,

Yes, the Springtails float.. A friend of mine works in another town than he lives in, so every monday morning he pour in a lot of Springtails before he leaves home for 4-5 days.. In that way the fishes have food for several days when he is gone..(Takes a while to catch every little S-tail..)

They survive on his floating "surface-plants" and on the glass above the water..
If one lives in a "normaly dry" apartment/house, the Springtails dies in a very short time if escaping out of the tank.. I`ve been told!
Which means they ought to be an alternative to bug-frightened people also..??

And...maybe they can be boosted with extra nutrients, if you add some in their food?? (If one wants to!!)

Tetras, halfbeaks, killies really likes them.. Probably Apistos will too.. especially if one has patience and doesn`t give them anything else??



I think the correct name is Pea aphids, Acyrthosiphon pisum.

From what I´ve heard they reproduce quite fast..??


These 2 insects might be a good alternative food---> giving the fishes different (needed?) nutrients ..!!??


BTW...krudolph...Glad to hear that your small Apistos are doing well!!!! ,
Good knowledge for my future tanks!! That goes for you too, regani !!!