Hard, high tds, high pH water apistogramma?

[MacZ]

Well... how to explain this... Things like those this breeder does are basically the dark side of the hobby. It is one thing to make the conditions needed this way to make them breed, produce asap as many fry as possible and sell those. This is utilitarist thinking. Like "If it does what I need, to make the fish spawn effectively, I can make a profit.".
Most people here are not interested in producing as many fry as quick as possible, but want to experience the fish display natural behaviour in an environment as close as possible and want to give them stable and healthy conditions. Fry that are probably worth some bucks are for many just a bonus. Guess that's why many here don't recommend such methods.

 

[Sanderguy777]

Yeah....that water isn't headed into any tank breeding fish.... pretty sure they have a 12,000 GPD RO system for that.

To be clear, I am NOT trying this. I was just curious if this is a valid thing, or some daft guy on youtube that didn't get a chemistry set for his 5th birthday lol

 

[MacZ]

To be clear, I am NOT trying this. I was just curious if this is a valid thing, or some daft guy on youtube that didn't get a chemistry set for his 5th birthday lol

In the industry (and I'd like to emphasize that word) this would be valid in many countries. High quality discus breeders would tar and feather that guy, though.

 

[Ben Rhau]

Since discus do better at low TDS, I wonder whether the muriatic acid is intended to manipulate the male/female ratio.

 

[Sanderguy777]

Since discus do better at low TDS, I wonder whether the muriatic acid is intended to manipulate the male/female ratio.

Would the acid have any effect on tds? I thought it was just to mess with the ph...

 

[Ben Rhau]

Raises TDS

 

[Sanderguy777]

Raises TDS

Interesting...

 

[Ben Rhau]

TDS is total dissolved solids. Adding things to your water increases the dissolved solids.

 

[Sanderguy777]

TDS is total dissolved solids. Adding things to your water increases the dissolved solids.

I didn't realize THAT would raise total dissolved SOLIDS, but I guess it kind of makes sense.

 

[Ben Rhau]

Put it this way, what a TDS meter actually measures is conductivity. That’s what appears to matter to apistos. The more ions there are in solution, the higher the conductivity. Adding muriatic acid is directly adding strong ions. It’s the opposite of what you want.

 

[Sanderguy777]

Put it this way, what a TDS meter actually measures is conductivity. That’s what appears to matter to apistos. The more ions there are in solution, the higher the conductivity. Adding muriatic acid is directly adding strong ions. It’s the opposite of what you want.

Ohhh... ok, that makes sense.
So it is lowering the ph (which doesn't matter to the fish) while raising the tds (which is what the fish DONT want).
Again, I want gonna try this method, but it is good to know WHY it is bad.

 

[Ben Rhau]

It may be too strong a statement to say pH doesn’t matter ever. For example, pH and temperature are thought to be important for gender ratios in fry development. But I think in general, the reasons that fish are observed at these pH levels (soft water, humic substances) may be more important than the pH itself. That’s why we don’t add strong ions or buffers to the water unless those things will make the water more like the natural habitat of the fish you’re keeping. In this case, not so much.

 

[Sanderguy777]

So what can I do, that is cheap and easy to lower my ph, tds, and hardness without a RODI unit? I already have driftwood in there, and an inert substrate.
Could I add boiled maple leaves (I have about 9 billion sitting outside in the yard lol) instead of the Indian almond (which seem to be going up jn price as 2020 progresses)?

I can't make the water perfect, but I want to TRY to make it better.

 

[Ben Rhau]

The only way to lower your TDS and hardness is to take stuff out, not put things in. You could try a water softener pillow, which essentially works the same way as a DI unit, but without RO it will be exhausted quickly. You could cut your water with rainwater or distilled water. Or get an RO unit. Or just choose fish that can tolerate harder water. Most of the line bred ones that are not agassizi should be somewhat tolerant of your water.

 

[Sanderguy777]

The only way to lower your TDS and hardness is to take stuff out, not put things in. You could try a water softener pillow, which essentially works the same way as a DI unit, but without RO it will be exhausted quickly. You could cut your water with rainwater or distilled water. Or get an RO unit. Or just choose fish that can tolerate harder water. Most of the line bred ones that are not agassizi should be somewhat tolerant of your water.

Which ones would those be? Borelli and cacatuoides seem to pop up a bunch in "high ph" threads, any others?
(Why NOT agassizii?)

 

[Ben Rhau]

Check out @mike Wise’s post here:
Post in thread 'Any apistos for harder water?'
https://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/any-apistos-for-harder-water.23838/post-111992

Agassizii are a blackwater species, and though there are many aquarium strains of them, those still require soft water.