Hard, high tds, high pH water apistogramma?

[Sanderguy777]

Ok, so I have a 55g tank with African cichlids and I want to switch it to an apisto breeding/community tank. I will enjoy the tank, then sell any surviving spawn.
I have been looking around and like the Apisto nijsseni, but im not sure if they would work...

based on my tank water:
Gh=150ppm
Kh=200-230ppm
Ph=~8.0 (I have mopani wood in the tank, so over a few days it drops to only 7.6...)

based on my city's water report:
Tds is 350 with a range between 340-360. (Ppm)
"Specific conductance" is 500 ranges between 480-520 (umhas/cm)

Are there any species that would work in this water, or is there a cheap/easy way to lower any of these HORRIFIC levels?

 

[MacZ]

Although it turned out the OP of that thread doesn't have as hard water as you do:

Any apistos for harder water?

Hi everyone! Here's my question...do all apistos need near-distilled, low PH water, or will some thrive and breed with a few degrees/tens of ppm GH and KH in the water? I was thinking about hardier species like A. borellii, cacatuoides, etc. Thanks :)

apistogramma.com

Might contain all the info you need.

 

[Sanderguy777]

Although it turned out the OP of that thread doesn't have as hard water as you do:

Any apistos for harder water?

Hi everyone! Here's my question...do all apistos need near-distilled, low PH water, or will some thrive and breed with a few degrees/tens of ppm GH and KH in the water? I was thinking about hardier species like A. borellii, cacatuoides, etc. Thanks :)

apistogramma.com

Might contain all the info you need.

I had actually read up the point of finding out his water was NOT hard in that thread lol.

But since I posted that, I have fallen in love with the Gymnogeophagus balzani or quilero. They are both able to be kept in room temp water (actually NEED to be), so that totally changes the parameters of this thread...

Now, if they can go with the Gymnogeos, the apistogramma need to be high pH resistant, and low temp (say 63-75°F) resistant. Sorry to change things like that...
I like borelli, but cacatuoides isn't really that gorgeous to me, and I was hoping for another few options I can be on the lookout for in my LFS.

 

[Mike Wise]

A. nijsseni is definitely a 'no'. This is a true blackwater species. Since you have 'liquid cement' for water, if you aren't willing to modify it, I'd stick with G. balzani. About the only commercially available apisto that I can recommend would be A. borellii. I don't know how successful they would be with G. balzani. South American cichlid breeding is different from that for mouthbrooding rift lake cichlids.

 

[Sanderguy777]

A. nijsseni is definitely a 'no'. This is a true blackwater species. Since you have 'liquid cement' for water, if you aren't willing to modify it, I'd stick with G. balzani. About the only commercially available apisto that I can recommend would be A. borellii. I don't know how successful they would be with G. balzani. South American cichlid breeding is different from that for mouthbrooding rift lake cichlids.

Which one is a rift lake species? Balzani are south american, aren't apistogramma borelli?

Would there be an issue with spawning Apistos and sand munching Gymnogeos?

I'm not opposed to changing chemistry, but only if it is cheap and easy (ro filter seems like the BEST option, but cost too much. Bottles of ph up and down are cheap, but too unstable.)
If there is a cheap, easy way to have lower ph water, I'm game. If LOVE to be able to keep soft water Apistos! I just can't spend much or take hours playing with chemistry sets to do it...

 

[MacZ]

Which one is a rift lake species? Balzani are south american, aren't apistogramma borelli?

Would there be an issue with spawning Apistos and sand munching Gymnogeos?

I'm not opposed to changing chemistry, but only if it is cheap and easy (ro filter seems like the BEST option, but cost too much. Bottles of ph up and down are cheap, but too unstable.)
If there is a cheap, easy way to have lower ph water, I'm game. If LOVE to be able to keep soft water Apistos! I just can't spend much or take hours playing with chemistry sets to do it...

He compared your africans (malawi?) with south americans. And that breeding either is very different. Which I can second because I did both.

Have you checked how much a small RO unit for aquariums costs? I paid 70 for a plug and play unit.

 

[Sanderguy777]

He compared your africans (malawi?) with south americans. And that breeding either is very different. Which I can second because I did both.

Have you checked how much a small RO unit for aquariums costs? I paid 70 for a plug and play unit.

Oh, ok, then yeah, that makes sense. Do the apistogramma need more maintenance than mbuna? I know they need caves and cover...

Wow! I have never used them, or looked (I always thought and heard they cost at least $150 and the "nice" ones were in the hundreds or thousands...
What unit do you recommend, and is it one I can screw onto the faucet and fill a bucket from, or do I need space to house it and a tank of ro water?

 

[MacZ]

They only need caves for breeding. I took out the cave I had in my tank about a month after the female died and I finally noticed the male doesn't use it. But a lot of roots and plants and cover is appreciated. The layout necessary for an Apistogramma tank differs a lot from Lake Malawi. The fish themselves don't need more maintenance, but the tanks setups do.

Erm, problem: I definitely live on another continent when you say $. I live in Europe. I'll still link you the one I have, so you can look for similar ones. I did not buy it on amazon, but thought then you can translate the site.

Osmotech ROH050 Osmoseanlage Hobby : Amazon.de: Haustier

Osmotech ROH050 Osmoseanlage Hobby : Amazon.de: Haustier

www.amazon.de

It's a small one. Takes some time to bottle up the water (40min for 5 liters), but if you have a big enough container just fill it. I just filled several containers at once that will get me trough at least 3 waterchanges. Took me two days but I got enough faucets. Just used the shower.

 

[Sanderguy777]

They only need caves for breeding. I took out the cave I had in my tank about a month after the female died and I finally noticed the male doesn't use it. But a lot of roots and plants and cover is appreciated. The layout necessary for an Apistogramma tank differs a lot from Lake Malawi. The fish themselves don't need more maintenance, but the tanks setups do.

Erm, problem: I definitely live on another continent when you say $. I live in Europe. I'll still link you the one I have, so you can look for similar ones. I did not buy it on amazon, but thought then you can translate the site.

Osmotech ROH050 Osmoseanlage Hobby : Amazon.de: Haustier

Osmotech ROH050 Osmoseanlage Hobby : Amazon.de: Haustier

www.amazon.de

It's a small one. Takes some time to bottle up the water (40min for 5 liters), but if you have a big enough container just fill it. I just filled several containers at once that will get me trough at least 3 waterchanges. Took me two days but I got enough faucets. Just used the shower.

Yep, 60€ is DEFINITELY not $60, but I did find this one for $60 on Amazon. I have absolutely no idea if it is good or not, though...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00204CQF6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_xWt1FbEVS7HEE

Would one in that price range take out tds too, or just lower ph? Sorry, I have no idea about these things, just that an RODI unit is "better" than a regular RO unit (only because I googled them this morning lol)

 

[MacZ]

Well, 1€ = 1.21$ so it's not that far apart. Looks like the same technology being used. If the reviews are ok, go for it.
Just remember, the output of such a unit is slow by design. So pick a compact unit in your price range with an output as high as possible. I usually take a weekend a months just to bottle up RO water.

Having looked at the unit you picked: It has an additional DI-filter,

It filters out almost (!) everything. Heard from people in the US that they don't filter out Chloramines, which is a concern I don't have as water suppliers in Germany have to remove everything like chlorine or chloramines before adding the water to the public supply system.
I don't test for TDS, but usually going by my readings before and after and what filters are used, they should be very low.
Just by using an RO unit the pH will not drop. You will still have to add a source of H+ ions like peat or botanicals.

And btw: RO = reverse osmosis, DI = de-ionised. That's two different techniques to achive almost pure water. Sometimes you find both in the same unit, like the one you linked, usually they are separate systems. The end product is almost the same.

 

[Sanderguy777]

Well, 1€ = 1.21$ so it's not that far apart. Looks like the same technology being used. If the reviews are ok, go for it.
Just remember, the output of such a unit is slow by design. So pick a compact unit in your price range with an output as high as possible. I usually take a weekend a months just to bottle up RO water.

Having looked at the unit you picked: It has an additional DI-filter,

It filters out almost (!) everything. Heard from people in the US that they don't filter out Chloramines, which is a concern I don't have as water suppliers in Germany have to remove everything like chlorine or chloramines before adding the water to the public supply system.
I don't test for TDS, but usually going by my readings before and after and what filters are used, they should be very low.
Just by using an RO unit the pH will not drop. You will still have to add a source of H+ ions like peat or botanicals.

And btw: RO = reverse osmosis, DI = de-ionised. That's two different techniques to achive almost pure water. Sometimes you find both in the same unit, like the one you linked, usually they are separate systems. The end product is almost the same.

I'll look into it, but I think I'll wait for the next tank build to get one. The main idea, I thought, was to pull the ph down to neutral, and strip out EVERYTHING (ok, 99% of everything) out of the water. If I the unit I can afford only takes out tds and not even chlorine (something the US DOES add (to help keep the water from growing things), AND I still need to do peat moss, then I need to wait.
Maybe the next tank I do, I will have moved (in the plans for when I graduate university in a year or so), and can afford a faster unit, or have an auto water charge system with a simple unit inline.

Thanks for the help, but I dont think I want to get into that world till I can REALLY get into it. At least with a decent size tank so it works 24/7...(all I have at the moment is 2 5 gallon buckets that I use to WC nasty water from the tank, and then fill the tank afterwards lol)

 

[MacZ]

You just got the basic principle wrong. The unit takes out tds and hardness including KH. And KH is the only thing that matters for pH. You can only change the pH after neutralizing the KH. That's how it chemically works. So you will need something with weak acids one way or another.

I said it seems to not remove chlorAMINES according to some US sources, but chlorine is removed. We also add chlorines, we just remove them before the water goes into the system once it's clean and the system is clean as well why leave it in, you know?

But yes, under the circumstances you have there it's not the right time to start all this now.

 

[Sanderguy777]

You just got the basic principle wrong. The unit takes out tds and hardness including KH. And KH is the only thing that matters for pH. You can only change the pH after neutralizing the KH. That's how it chemically works. So you will need something with weak acids one way or another.

I said it seems to not remove chlorAMINES according to some US sources, but chlorine is removed. We also add chlorines, we just remove them before the water goes into the system once it's clean and the system is clean as well why leave it in, you know?

But yes, under the circumstances you have there it's not the right time to start all this now.

Yeah, I was under the impression that it removed EVERYTHING, and brought the water down to neutral pH. If I ever end up trying it, I'll definitely do a lot more research on what system I need and what would be involved.
Thanks!

 

[Ben Rhau]

If you remove the salts that buffer your water, it will start as neutral, but drift to slightly acidic as the aqueous fraction of CO2 yields carbonic acid. It should be easy to move the pH in low TDS water.

A lot of folks with fewer tanks use the RO Buddie, which is an inexpensive RO unit, around $50. Note that the cheaper ones will not be as efficient as higher capacity units, so it will be a bit slower as well as generating more wastewater.

 

[MacZ]

Just so nobody gets my statement a few posts earlier wrong: Just looked it up - If a RO unit includes prefilters with active carbon and sediment filter chlorine and chloramine are filtered out. And as I can tell by the readings of my RO water more than 70% of nitrates are also removed aswell as >90% of GH and >95% of KH.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

removed EVERYTHING, and brought the water down to neutral pH.

This is why I don't like pH as a measurement. Like @Ben Rhau says theoretically it should be pH7, because you have an equal ratio of OH- and H+ ions (I'll just ignore <"the hydronium ion">), but actually pure water is <"naturally acidic (~pH5.5)"> because of dissolved CO2, and the very small proportion of that (0.15%) that converts to carbonic acid (H2CO3).

However If you added the smallest amount of a strong base (like sodium hydroxide (NaOH)) that pH would swing up to pH10.

It makes it much easier if you look at changes in water chemistry, rather than changes in pH and that is why I use @ButtNekkid's conductivity as a measure, rather than pH. If you have low conductivity you don't have many ions of any description and an addition of weak acids will reduce pH.

cheers Darrel

 

[Ben Rhau]

If you have low conductivity you don't have many ions of any description and an addition of weak acids will reduce pH.

The possible exception to that is when a strong base has already been added. In San Francisco, our tap water has very low TDS (50 - 100) but NaOH has been added. In my experience, I can lower the pH by filtering over peat, but the mechanism of that is ion exchange, not introduction of weak acids. Since I am avoiding peat, what I do is add leaves and alder cones, which tend not be enough to lower my pH below neutral unless very large quantities are added. I just tolerate the higher pH (typically around 7.5) since it doesn't appear that the pH itself matters very much.

Also, I doubt an RO unit would lower my pH in this case, since the selective membrane allows OH- ions though. @dw1305 Is that correct?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The possible exception to that is when a strong base has already been added. In San Francisco, our tap water has very low TDS (50 - 100) but NaOH has been added.

It is the same in the UK, everyone has NaOH and PO4--- added to their water to reduce heavy metal levels (mainly lead (Pb)). It is <"PIMS to control plumbosolvency">.

With a strong base there isn't any reserve of buffering, so all the Na+ and OH- ions are instantly in solution. You've added an alkali metal (Na+) and a hydroxide ion (OH-), both of which will raise the pH (the ratio of H+ : OH- ions ). If you add an an acid it is defined as a proton (H+ ion) donor and eventually the pH will fall as soon as H+ ions reach parity with OH- ions in solution. Conductivity <"will rise as you add the acid"> and more ions go into solution.

You can potentially remove the Na+ ion for ions exchange, but you have the issue of sodium being one of the most lightly bound cation on the <"lyotropic series">.

I doubt an RO unit would lower my pH in this case, since the selective membrane allows OH- ions though. @dw1305 Is that correct?

I'm going to say "yes", but I think it depends <"upon the membrane">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Sanderguy777]

I saw a video where a breeder had a 35 gallon trash barrel (obviously dedicated) and would fill it up, put a couple caps of muriatic acid in, let it sit for 3 or 4 days, and it would lower the pH enough that discus could breed in it... how many acid bottle caps is based on testing they do on the final result. If it isnt acidic enough, then they add more caps, if too much, then they take some away. (He specifically said NOT to pour the acid into the tank as the chemical reaction would kill everything in it).

I don’t think that would solve any other issues, like tds or kh, etc, but it seems to work for their discus breeding room!

 

[CRD]

I saw a video where a breeder had a 35 gallon trash barrel (obviously dedicated) and would fill it up, put a couple caps of muriatic acid in, let it sit for 3 or 4 days, and it would lower the pH enough that discus could breed in it... how many acid bottle caps is based on testing they do on the final result. If it isnt acidic enough, then they add more caps, if too much, then they take some away. (He specifically said NOT to pour the acid into the tank as the chemical reaction would kill everything in it).

I don’t think that would solve any other issues, like tds or kh, etc, but it seems to work for their discus breeding room!

Yeah....that water isn't headed into any tank breeding fish.... pretty sure they have a 12,000 GPD RO system for that.