cacatuoides ladies died.

[Karin]

Hi everyone. I am new to Apistos, almost. Five month ago I decided to buy a pair of young cacatuoides to put on my 70 X 30 X 40 cm tank, with a few “homemade” lebistes, lots of plants, rocks and wood. The female died a month later. The male is still doing ok.

As I expected, and don’t mind, there are no more baby lebistes and only adult big female Red Cherries. A second cacatuoides lady did last also a month. Same way, doing right until a day or two then she stayed at the bottom, all colored up and died.

Nitrates are less than 12. 5 mg/L, tap water is soft, pH around 7.3. once a week water change.

I was wondering if the male, which happens to be not very big, could be the cause… I’d waited a while and decided not to give up. So, put to caves in opposite sides of the tank (terracotta pots), lots of oak leafs, rearrange a little and add two new females… He turned black and flapping at them his tail and fins, chasing after them both, but also hitting them on their sides. I am not sure if that is ok, or will kill them for stress. What am I suppose to expect or do? I will appreciate any ideas, thanks!

 

[MickeM]

Hi Karin+all..

The tail-flapping and chasing is normal in this situation..since they are now entering "his" territorium.. he is "testing" if they will "play by his rules" so to speak..
Females(or weaker males) who are accepting him as the dominant one will show their bellies and be folding down their dorsal fin ..as a sign that they do not want to challenge him!! I guess they often swims away if they are not ready to spawn in the nature..
The violent behaviour will stop when the females are ready to spawn..or when he understands that they will stay in his area under his "leadership"!

You may also need to put in some more optic barriers in the tank so he cannot see them all of the time..
The females will however.. still be quite aggressive to eachother!!
And you may have to add some more other fishes he can focus on ..instead of the females!!
But my experience is that he will learn to be a little bit more calm.. after a few weeks or so...if they become submissive to him!!??
Or at least after the first sucessfully spawning...!!

Keep an eye on the females..!! If they get infected by fungus or parasites(white dots) , you may have to do something about it!!

If they can`t stop the fighting ..you can put him in a calm/shaded bucket with a cave..outside the tank for a week or so..in OK temp !(and keeping him on a diet ..so you don`t risk to pollute the water in the bucket!!) Then refurnish the tank before you put him in again!!
He will have to restart in an enviroment new to him!!

If you are out of females and will buy new ones ..one day..... I would recommend you to put him out..and let them start and "settle in" at first..in a "fresh" new habitat!!

I wish you good luck ! Don`t give up! There is a nice and great reward to see the Apistos with fry!!

/Micke

 

[Karin]

Thank you Micke!!! I think this could work then... the girls are running away indeed, when he hits them, fins fold as you said. I hope he calm down a little in time... otherwise I ll put him away for a while so. There are many tall plants all over the tank (java fern, java moss, lemna, floating ceratopteris... ) and there are still seven boisterous lebistes yet (by the way, they are faster at eating grindal than cactuoides... Apistos do still think what to do while worms are already gone!!). The question is: how long to wait until fishing him out before is too late.

Thanks again.
Amazing forum.

 

[MickeM]

Maybe it is a good idea to put him out (of the tank!!) immediately????
He seems to be hard to stop right now!!...
When the fins are brooken on the females..the limit might have been reached I think!!!
But I would probably move him out now!!

If you have got one of these livebearers cages/nets ..that may also work to put him in?? (With lots of javafern/moss or other plants + a cave of some sort!!)
But I think you will have to refurnish before you put him in anyway!!

My experience is that males get reeally intense in their wooing behaviours after a waterchange.. so I would recommend you not to do that right now, if you decide to keep them together!

By the way!!..
If you mix the grindal worms or any froozen food in a cup of water before you feed them..
the food can reach the "slow" Apistos in an easier way when you pour it in the tank!!
(Almost alll fishes that lives in groups/shoals are unstoppable in eating I think!!, that is why I have kept my Apistos with a pair of Pseudoepiplatys anullatus for several times!!.. instead of tetras!! Then you might get fry from them as well..if you have lots of plants at the surface..)


Cheers,
Micke.

 

[Karin]

thank you again! I will follow the advices. The girls have their fins fine, there is no damage for the moment, but as you said, he is very intense... turns all black.

 

[Karin]

uauu... the Pseudoepiplatys anullatus... a beauty, I didnt knew it, I just googled it! what a fish!

 

[gerald]

Another trick that might help is to put in a screen divider for a few weeks, so they can see and smell each other but can't fight. Remove it only when you have a few hours to be at home and check on them frequently, until you are pretty sure they have "made friends".

 

[MickeM]

Hi again Karin..

Be sure you have a lid/"coverslip" on top of the bucket to the male..if you move him ..?
the females ought to have some room and space to be at peace!!
Also..after a spawn without a good result.. Apisto-females may be lacking new eggs to lay..and needing more time to produce new ones..
and then they are really not fond of a male in heat!! Maybe that is what happend to the other female??
Be sure to feed the females a lot if so!! I used to trick my male with the first amount of food..and seconds later pouring lots of food in front of the female..in the other side of the tank!!

Haha..Yes..the Ps.anullatus are nice ..and small ..approx. 4cm !!
and almost at the surface all the time!!
If you keep larger Apistos ..in larger tanks.. you can use "real" Epiplatys -species(6-8cm) as companion to the Apistos..
They are really cool fishes, but can jump if they want to!!!

Good luck!!

 

[Karin]

thank you guys, you both are giving me very good ideas and tips! I let you know.. !! Of course the idea is to get to the fry... will see.

 

[Karin]

I might move the male to the 60 L serpae tank? there are only four of them... its a nice little tank with plants...in the mean time.

 

[MickeM]

That is a good idea, I think..

If you do have a very different waterquality in the 60l tank compared with the Apisto tank... you may take 30-40l of the Apisto-water and pour in the 60l tank before you put him in !! (As long as you don`t transport any "bad" creatures like snails or something else you might not like..into your
60l tank..)
In that way you will probably be sure that he will feel OK in the 60L...almost without any "new" water to him!!
I use that method whenever I have to move fishes in a sudden situation..

But in a normal situation and if he is healthy and OK.... just do it the "normal" way!!!


If you choose the first method , you can either fill the Apistotank up immediately..as usual..
or do like I do..
pour in a small amount( 0,5L ) of new water every day....when I feed the fishes..


I

 

[Karin]

Great! I am at the lab now. But this morning the ladies were gorgeous. I fed them all the way you said, with the cup of water. Amazing, the grindals were all over and everyone ate... that is all for now!

 

[Karin]

I think there is something different going on in my tank... after almost 10 days of relatively peace, the male chasing both females, the females showing bellies and trying to live harmoniously... one of the females did not come out to eat today, but I thought I saw her briefly. The male showed up as did lady number two, they both ate, fought, she showed belly and then the male disappeareded. ... lady number two wanders happily around, nobody pestering her. And lady number one is inside one of the caves! First time I see it. She goes in and out, in and out, never getting far from the entrance. Not an inch. In the end I manage to see the male, he is behind the cave under the messy java moss. The female goes looking for him, it seems to me... I think she is skinny? I m peeping, so she peeps me... will this bother her? Is it going on what I think might be going on?! (sorry my English!)

 

[MickeM]

Hi Karin..

What size do they have in relation to eachother??

The reason I ask is this ..
A small male may woo and then spawn with a female that is smaller than himself, but may have problem to defend his area toward another female that is bigger than him!!
Your description can match this situation.. ??
Since the male did show respect to the female that showed her belly and swam back into a cave..,
maybe she is guarding some eggs..(fertilized by him) !!??
This is a normal behaviour after her laying of eggs..the male keeps out of her way and continues to guard his/their area..supported and trigged by her.

But.. when/if he then meets a bigger female in his "neighbourhood" that he can not impress or get to accept him.. she may kick his ass so to speak!!
The first (smaller??) female may then miss him and look for him to defend their territory!!
It may lead to a fight between the two females and maybe an unsuccessful ending.. (bigger female eating the smaller females eggs...
or kidnapping of the "wrigglers"/fry).
If the first female in the cave is skinny+extremly yellow with dark markings+aggressive... she is most probably guarding eggs!!
And she also ought to dig sand out of the cave ..to protect her eggs/fry from intruders..!!

My guess.. (without having more info) is that you have got one small female (guarding eggs) , a middle size male(now hiding from the big female?) , and one large female??
Am I right??


/Micke

 

[Karin]

Hi Micke! Thank for your answer. Here is the thing, the two females are exactly the same size, small girls, may be 2-3 cm. They are smaller than the male, which is also not very big. Anyway, he is completely in charge of the tank, clearly the master. The girls show the belly to him when he chases them, so he stops or still pursues them. Nevertheless there is clearly calm in the tank, nobody (the girls) being hurt. The females haven't being fighting between them neither. The difference today is that one of the females (seems to be skinny, with black markings, but really not very yellow) is inside the cave. She goes in and out mostly all the time and staying at the door. The male is also still around the cave, but I haven't seen him in. The other female seems happy swimming all over the tank minding her business. She seems submissive when he is around. Nonetheless the lady in the cave does not look specially aggressive but busy, coming in and out... may be, as you said, the male IS going around from time to time to see the neigborghood... the lebistes don't seem to pay any atention though.

 

[MickeM]

Hmmm!!????
That is an interesting situation...

I once had a wildcaught male of Apistogramma spec."Vielfleck"(Assurini)..
When the female was standing with eggs in a coco-cave.. he was standing at "the entrance" almost 50-60% of the time ..until she came out with his fry one week later. And then they were acting as Apistos usually do.. teamwork!! But that male was very keen on what was going on inside the cave..
And their sons and daughters were not behaving like that when they spawned later on!!

I have also seen a male of Ap. borellii "taking over" the eggs from a female he who was guarding "his" eggs. This happened in a "Pet-Store-tank "
without any caves in it!! They spawned on the leaf of a Microsorium among lots of Java-moss..
He chased the female away and then failed to continue "the rest of the job".. After 2-3 days the it was all over...


Unless your "cave"-female is not sick and very eager to just be alone in the cave.. I still think she is guarding eggs...!!???
And if the male are swimming away ("backing down" in front of her..he might be "involved" in her "project").
Is she tail-flapping toward him..and he is swimming away(almost avioding confrontation.. but still "prideful" when meeting other fishes)??? Then it ought to be a new/younger generation inside the cave..
The other female may have some x-tra space to swim at.. for a few days!!! Until a quite aggressive female with fry appears!!

BUT!!!... if your male is not involved... the other female may be!!!
and then you will have to check out this:
1 - If she..is a small male not showing "his" true colours yet!!?? ( A common situation when having young Apistos!! Since it is better to be a "fake female" in disguise..not getting beaten by the dominant male...)
2 - If the second "female" have any friendly relationship with the female in the cave..? (but still can not fight down the "first" male..)

One more thing.. To be sure...Have a check on your "big" male...!!
If he is weak due to any illness then the cave-female might have the same problem..
The most common on Apistos is Flagellates..often resulting in internal "stomach"-problems .. fishes are then standing in one place
and slowly moving the body in a S-shape...! Fishes may then get other patterns on the body+ more pale in colours I think..
If the Apistos are sick..it may not show at all at the other fishes.. that is my experience !!


I hope you soon have fry in your tank!!

/Micke

 

[Karin]

Thank you Micke! Lots of great info! I AM learning! Well... I am not that sure about the whole thing but I can say the male is pretty healthy, good looking. This morning he was at the second cave flapping beautifully his red and black fins to the second lady (which happens to stay shyily for a moment and then gone away fins folded. Lady number one was inside the cave and showed her little face to me when I started to peep at her. Went out then in... Thats all I can tell. If, only if, things are going good... When should I start a BBs culture????!! (Optimistic!)

 

[MickeM]

Hi Karin !!

It looks like your fishes are healthy from what I understand.. That is good!

Usually they dig sand out of the cave and almost block the entrance completely.., but if you have larger gravel in your tank..,
this might not occur!!
And after a couple of days the females may move the "wrigglers" from the first cave to another place/cave..

If the other female also guard a cave/place.. she may also have eggs/wrigglers/fry!!??

The behaviour that the male shows is probably a way to see if the second female is ready to spawn also..
Apistog. trifasciata (and other Apistos..) often do this.. if the female follows him..that is a sign that she is ready+interested in him!!

In my opinion, Brineshrimp(Artemia sp.) is not a necessity the first week/weeks as long as you have a tank with lots of plants/leafs in it..
As a matter of fact.. I have moved out half of a "fry-batch" and then observed slower growth of the fry that I took out of the tank.. compared to the ones still beeing with the female!!
And the lonely group of fry got Brineshrimps every day , but the fry remaining with the female did not get as much of Brineshrimps...but growing much faster anyway!!
Probably the fry needs /gets lots of other small food-types from plants and other "stuff" in a planted tank compared with a sterile one..

But if you want fry to grow fast you can increase the amount of water beeing changed also.. and hoovering up waste-products..
Then they grow faster than "normal"... as long as they get good+ enough of nutrient-rich food..


Good luck!! ( It looks like you have been "hooked" on Apistos!!))
/Micke..

 

[Karin]

Thank you Micke!! I am sooo excited, yes! And "hooked", as you said. Thanks for wishing luck!...and explaining so many staff. I will be around!

 

[Mike Wise]

In my opinion, Brineshrimp(Artemia sp.) is not a necessity the first week/weeks as long as you have a tank with lots of plants/leafs in it..
As a matter of fact.. I have moved out half of a "fry-batch" and then observed slower growth of the fry that I took out of the tank.. compared to the ones still beeing with the female!!
And the lonely group of fry got Brineshrimps every day , but the fry remaining with the female did not get as much of Brineshrimps...but growing much faster anyway!!
Probably the fry needs /gets lots of other small food-types from plants and other "stuff" in a planted tank compared with a sterile one..

Your observations are a bit skewed by using only 1 test. Your results would be expected since feeding activity in newly freeswimming fry is more behavioral than nutritional. Fry without a mother to guide them and signal all is safe tend to drop to the bottom and not move nor actively feed - no matter how much or how high the food quality is. OTOH fry with a mother will be more active feeders. I think that if you kept the mother with the fry in a more bare tank that got brine shrimp that they would out-grow the fry in a heavily planted tank with only aufwuchs and occasional extra feedings.