Apistogramma norberti - Sexing help

[s1l3nt]

Hi All,
I picked up a "pair" of A. norberti on Friday night and released them into the tank at about 1am Saturday. It was pretty hard for me to tell if I had a Male and Female pair or not in the bag so I figured i'd let them settle and try to get some shots. However, watching them in tank didn't help me much and actually confused me more haha.

The "pair" are different in size by about 1-1.5cm. The smaller of the two is ~3.5-4cm while the bigger is ~4.5-5cm. They are wild caught (F0) fish. Both fish seemed to show the pattern in the caudal fin (more easily visible on the larger fish) which I thought was a male only trait, but both fish show a yellow hue to their body. The larger is more yellow than the smaller (smaller is only slightly yellow), and has a black line on its pectoral fins which I thought was a female only trait for Apistogramma. The bigger fish also shows a blue hue to the middle of the body too while I have not seen this on the smaller one.

Hopefully the gurus here can help me sex the fish as I'd really like to try and breed them as they are harder to find down here in Australia, and are pretty uncommon.

I realise this is not the best shot, but the fish have only been in the tank for ~24 hours when I took the shot. I will have more photos to come as soon as they settle in a little more. They are still skittish and stay hidden most of the time, especially when I am near the tank (they are yet to learn the man with a syringe is food!).

This is a shot of the bigger of the two:


Thank you in advance and hopefully I can get some better pics in the coming days for a better ID

 

[Mike Wise]

The fish is too stressed to really get a good view. It probably is a young male in the photo, but I can't be absolutely positive. I would give the fish some time to adjust to their new home and some time to mature. Then you should be able to sex the fish.

 

[s1l3nt]

Thank you Mike. Was hoping you would jump in I thought that would be the case, they are still quite skittish so even getting that photo was hard. I will let them settle in a little better and then try to get some more photos. Will update the thread once I have them I am about 90% sure the smaller of two is a female, last night during feeding it was a nice yellow all over, and dropped the lateral line for the black spot and the black markings got quite dark. The pattern on the tail is very barely visible, if at all.

This bigger one in the photo above has me confused though... Last night I noticed that he/she developed a black border to the caudal fin also. Which I believe is a male trait?

Hopefully more photos to come soon

 

[s1l3nt]

I am back with a few more photos. I took these 2 nights ago, and I am 95% sure it is all the same fish, the smaller of the two. I have seen the bigger of the two chase the little one and nip it a couple of times, and i also have seen the larger of the two flaring at its reflection quite a bit but I have also seen it go yellow with the black spot, and all... So I have a bad feeling I have two females

I am also 95% sure the smaller of the two is a female, the larger I am not so certain about as I do not see it too much. It hides in its cave alot....

The only difference I can spot easily (if not the only thing) is the spotted pattern on the caudal fin of the larger of the two. and the larger has a more prominent blue sheen to top fin and body too.

On to the photos.

 

[s1l3nt]

NOTE: The first photo in the set above MIGHT be the larger fish... Its hard to tell... But I am basing my thoughts on the fact that it has the slightly visible (while out of focus) spotted pattern on its tail. But that might also be a reflection of the flash :\ Very hard to tell

 

[s1l3nt]

On a sad note, I am about 95% sure I have two females. Both show same colourations, and the larger occasionally chases the smaller fish. Thankfully the tank is heavily planted and has aqua scape to block line of sight too so there is minimal aggressiona nd issues. Now I need to find a male which is sadly going to be rather hard to do here in Australia

 

[deliriouz]

Theres a male advertised for sale in Perth for a bargain - http://www.perthcichlid.com.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=60388#entry337511

Shipping might be an issue if you aren't in WA.

 

[s1l3nt]

Thanks you @deliriouz I will see if I can convince him to ship to me, as I am not in WA I am in Sydney, NSW.

I am 99% sure I have two females now I have managed to get some new photos now that the fish are less skittish when I come to feed them and look at them...

Smaller fish - Female? She gets chased when the larger is out and about but no damage done as there is plenty of hiding places and line of sight breaking. I will need to sell one of the two females... But might keep one separated until the Norberti pair up so I can swap one out if they are incompatible. There are more photos of the smaller fish posted earlier in the thread.


Larger Fish - Also female?







Hopefully these new pictures make it easy to ID but im 99% sure I have 2 females... Unless the smaller is a sleeper male or something?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Hopefully these new pictures make it easy to ID but im 99% sure I have 2 females... Unless the smaller is a sleeper male or something?

They look in really good condition, but they do look like two females.

cheers Darrel

 

[s1l3nt]

Thank you Darrel. This is what I was worried about Its going to be hard to find a male now sadly. But will keep at it!

 

[deliriouz]

Wild noberti are listed at aquarium industries..look at the stock list and get your lfs to order them in.

 

[s1l3nt]

Thats where these came from Deliriouz However, LFS wont order just one in and won't guarantee me a male either. That is the biggest issue, this was a "guaranteed" pair that was two females. Have sent a pm to the guy in perth you linked, but hasn't gotten back to me yet. So... The hunt continues, again....