A.Viejita forehead

[D0raem0n]

I'm hoping someone can check the pics of my A.Viejita, specifically the forehead area. The spot on the head (not sure if its a white mark or a shallow hole) is bugging me being new to this specie. I don't want to conclude ich/hexamita/HitH, so am hoping any experienced ones in here like Mike can provide thoughts on it.

Add'l details:
Bought it from a trusted source, just 1 day old in my established (SA) tank. I don't see any inflammation and he acts normal so far.

 

[Mike Wise]

Welcome to the forum. I only have 3 things to say: 1) this is A. macmasteri, like 99.9% of all "A. viejita" in the trade, 2) the photo is too fuzzy to get a good view of the pore, but from what I can see it doesn't look like ich, maybe a light inflammation that decent water conditions and nutrition should take care of, and 3) why put a new fish in an established tank without a quarantine period?? Anyone who has been here for any time, know that quarantine is one of my axioms for new fish from any source.

 

[DanielG]

I had a 'Double Red' that started out with this. Eventually, the pit became deeper and more pronounced. I quarantined him for 5 days with bacterial/fungal treatments. When the hole 'healed' (turned from white to dark colored), I put him back in the main display tank. The next morning I found him dead. I want to say it was hole in head disease, but could not say for sure. This was sometime last year, and it is definitely hard to say whether continued treatment would have saved him...but I tried.

I would definitely recommend quarantine and start your research.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I think it is probably "Hole in the head" disease. I'd try a range of different foods (including some live food), and frequent water changes, and hopefully it will go away.

cheers Darrel

 

[wethumbs]

'Hole in the head' is usually due to poor water conditions resulting in lack of tank maintenance. It is relatively easy to treat.

 

[Mike Wise]

... if caught early.

 

[gerald]

... and if poor water condition is the primary cause. "Hole in the head" can also be a symptom of infectious diseases (protozoa, bacteria, etc) some of which are easily treatable and some are not.

'Hole in the head' is usually due to poor water conditions resulting in lack of tank maintenance. It is relatively easy to treat.

 

[DanielG]

I've had success with 'Metronidazole'. If you can get it early you may give it a try. My female Agassizii tends to get HIH sometimes, i'm thinking it has something to do with Nitrate & Phosphates as Apist's generally prefer water without these. Correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

My female Agassizii tends to get HIH sometimes, i'm thinking it has something to do with Nitrate & Phosphates as Apist's generally prefer water without these. Correct me if i'm wrong.

I think they like clean water, but evidence from the planted tank community suggests that it isn't as simple as "high levels of x, y and z are toxic". Nitrate and phosphate are usually the joint markers of polluted water in natural situations, but if you add them as dry salts to planted tanks you can successfully keep sensitive fish at "toxic" levels.

I tend to try a more holistic "reduction of BOD" approach, the problem is that we have to use other factors as an estimate of BOD.

There is some discussion of this here: (apologies for the cross-post) <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/which-parameters-do-fish-care-about.29169/>.

cheers Darrel

 

[D0raem0n]

Welcome to the forum. I only have 3 things to say: 1) this is A. macmasteri, like 99.9% of all "A. viejita" in the trade, 2) the photo is too fuzzy to get a good view of the pore, but from what I can see it doesn't look like ich, maybe a light inflammation that decent water conditions and nutrition should take care of, and 3) why put a new fish in an established tank without a quarantine period?? Anyone who has been here for any time, know that quarantine is one of my axioms for new fish from any source.

First off, thanks for the welcome, been reading here for a while and this site has helped me a lot being an apisto-lover.
1.) I have 2 A.Viejita & 1 A.Macmasteri, may have switched it so I'll try to post the other when I get a decent pic to double check. Got crappy cam.
3.) My source already quarantines (2-3 months) them for me but I may have gotten the wrong one this time around from them.
2.) Atm, I'm torn between keeping him in my current 45gal South American biotope planted tank (best water/env't-enriched condition) vs the only other 5gal tank that I have (bare tank with semi-blackwater, wood & Indian Almond leaves) on eheim HOB.

To further diagnose, here are my other observations atm:
~ he seems to have difficulty breathing from time to time, stretches his mouth sometimes and mouth always open-wide. Dorsal & other fins almost always stretched out. He moves gracefully slower (too old?)
~ i've seen him stay on the tank upper level sometimes, but he does go back to lower area most of the day.
~ i've hadn't seen him eat my pellets unlike the other apisto's, though may be he's taken a small shrimp (RCS)
~ he is the biggest apisto that i have which tells me i got him too old (is that also why his mouth is always fully open?). the rest of my apisto's in the same tank are 100% fine (by looks, movement & interactions). he has flared/taunted the others, but the younger ones seem to disregard him. may be out of respect for his age? LoL

 

[gerald]

Whenever I've had an Apisto show all the symptoms you describe: rapid breathing, unusually frequent "yawning" and fin/body stretching, lethargic behavior, and loss of appetite, they almost always die within a few months. Later symptoms often include white to pink sores developing on the head or body, paralysis of the jaws or pectoral fin, and abdominal bloating as the kidney slowly fails. My guess is a slow-growing bacterial infection. This is a common cause of death in old fish (3+ years for Apistos).

 

[D0raem0n]

Whenever I've had an Apisto show all the symptoms you describe: rapid breathing, unusually frequent "yawning" and fin/body stretching, lethargic behavior, and loss of appetite, they almost always die within a few months. Later symptoms often include white to pink sores developing on the head or body, paralysis of the jaws or pectoral fin, and abdominal bloating as the kidney slowly fails. My guess is a slow-growing bacterial infection. This is a common cause of death in old fish (3+ years for Apistos).

Btw, thanks to all of you guys for sharing & throwing ideas on this thread, appreciate it much.

I'm starting to fully digest the situation now, so I guess the only question left is:
~ Given my main concern is my main tank (got my beloved Apisto's/Pencilfishes/Otocinclus in there), am I endangering the others if I choose to retain him & rely on his immunity with just best condition water/env't?

To be honest, I like Grandpa Macmasteri here, but I've never lost any fish in this tank for abt a year already, not even with any of the N.Beckfordi, N.Eques or Oto-cats so I also don't want to start with one now. *confused*

 

[gerald]

As long as he's still eating and acting fairly normal, and doesn't show any open sores, you can leave him in the main tank if you want. If he stops eating or if sores appear, then move him to a hospital tank for his final days, or just euthanize him. All the fish in the tank are already exposed to whatever he's got (IF it's an infectious disease). The concern is that as he gets weaker, the disease "bugs" may multiply faster and he may shed enough of them to overwhelm the other healthy fishes' immune systems. Low-level exposure to pathogens is probably GOOD for developing a strong immune system in young fish, as in humans. Just ask anybody who has purchased adult discus that were born and raised in near-sterile conditions and then tried to add them to a not-so-sterile community tank.

 

[D0raem0n]

Low-level exposure to pathogens is probably GOOD for developing a strong immune system in young fish, as in humans.

Wow... I just got a bonus, been researching about immunity systems of freshwater fauna as I try to stay away from medications. In case you have reliable reading materials about it, please share if it's not too much to ask. I've once cured a tumor with an Otocinclus just by putting it in an enriched env't that made her happy in turn increasing immunity.

Going back, it's a done deal then. Except for the euthanasia part, i can never bear that with any of my pets. Thanks for the great help! ^_^ cheers

 

[Mike Wise]

I find keeping fish in as close to optimal - not sterile - conditions as possible is more effective at keeping them healthy and disease free than any medicine ever will. Sometimes euthanasia is preferable to seeing an animal suffer a slow lingering death.