Soil

[Icuras]

I am using ADA amazonia soil for keeping apisto.
It keep the PH around 6 and the water is clear, but does it bring any harm to apisto?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I am using ADA amazonia soil for keeping apisto.
It keep the PH around 6 and the water is clear, but does it bring any harm to apisto?

It should be all right, after the initial leach of ammonia (NH4+) has occurred.

I think "active substrates" are more popular in Asia. In Europe, and the USA, most keepers use sand.

You may find that the tannins from Terminalia catappa etc are removed by the substrate, but I would still have some leaf litter.

cheers Darrel

 

[Icuras]

Thx Darrel
Yes, it is very popular in Asia, but recently increased people using sand as well.
Some argue about the soil will dissolve to formed small particle which will cause disease to the gill.
But there is no actual finding about this, and I would like to get more idea from the forum.

 

[gerald]

I have not heard about that effect. Can you tell us more about that theory of gill damage from ADA soil particles? Do they think is it caused by physical abrasion to the gills, or a chemical reaction, or something else?

Thx Darrel
Some argue about the soil will dissolve to formed small particle which will cause disease to the gill.
But there is no actual finding about this, and I would like to get more idea from the forum.

 

[Icuras]

They said the aqua soil will dissolve slowly after using for few months (especially ADA soil), particle/powder will accumulate at the base.
Apisto like to foraging at the base which may casued the particle stick on the gills. Then it will breathe rapidly and the mouth can't close.
I really doubt about that theory.
However, increase number of hobbyist change to use sand because of this.

 

[gerald]

There is plenty of fine silt and clay in natural Apisto stream habitats too. I dont see any reason why silt from ADA soil would "stick to the gills" any more than natural clays and silts in rivers. Fish gills produce mucus to constantly keep themselves clean, just like our eyes and sinuses do. Rapid breathing and mouth/jaw paralysis are most likely symptoms of disease infections. For example Mycobacterium disease can cause paralyzed jaws or fins, and many different bacteria, protozoans, trematodes, and other parasites can cause rapid breathing. However, IF there are any added chemicals in the ADA soil that are harmful to Apistos, that might possibly weaken their immune systems and make them more susceptible to infections.

 

[Dravik2]

maybe the problem is not the soil sticking to the gils but the fact they can not sift sand true there gils like they do in nature?

 

[boofeng]

I am using ADA amazonia soil for keeping apisto.
It keep the PH around 6 and the water is clear, but does it bring any harm to apisto?

In Singapore the few apisto collectors/breeders I do know all use ADA aquasoil, usually Amazonia or Africa, because Malaya is too crumbly. They love using it. Nobody's mentioned any issues. In fact, everyone I talk to about using a sand / peat moss mix doesn't understand why I'd go to the trouble instead of just using soil.

By the way, for the water chemistry gurus over here, is it possible to 'recharge' aquasoil (or peat moss, for that matter) by soaking them in dilute acids? Does it matter what acids they are? I thought of this because I read that farmers and gardeners complain about high rainfall (i.e. carbonic acid) 'leaching out' metal ions from the soil, ergo the need for lime/dolomite/K supplementation, etc. The receptors for the metal ions are being filled by H+ ions when this happens, aren't they?

They said the aqua soil will dissolve slowly after using for few months (especially ADA soil), particle/powder will accumulate at the base.
Apisto like to foraging at the base which may casued the particle stick on the gills. Then it will breathe rapidly and the mouth can't close.
I really doubt about that theory.
However, increase number of hobbyist change to use sand because of this.

I had a long chat with an LFS owner who has stopped using mosses with his apistos because they tend to accumulate sediment, and when disturbed release clouds that affect fish, e.g. cloudy eye, rapid breathing, red gills, scratching against objects, etc.

I suspect this is more to do with lack of tank hygiene due to overstocking or water changes and biological filtration not keeping up with bioload - sediment whether in soil or moss will be harmful to fish if they're full of decaying organics which are not yet fully decomposed.

 

[gerald]

I agree with you - the disease symptoms that LFS owner is seeing probably has nothing to do with the moss. It's more likely tank hygiene issues as you suspect, or diseases coming in on stressed fish from the farms or wholesalers.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

By the way, for the water chemistry gurus over here, is it possible to 'recharge' aquasoil (or peat moss, for that matter) by soaking them in dilute acids? Does it matter what acids they are? I thought of this because I read that farmers and gardeners complain about high rainfall (i.e. carbonic acid) 'leaching out' metal ions from the soil, ergo the need for lime/dolomite/K supplementation, etc. The receptors for the metal ions are being filled by H+ ions when this happens, aren't they?

Yes, potentially you can "recharge" your active substrate with an acid wash, it is "cation exchange". Even though multivalent ions are more strongly bound than monovalent ions (other than H+) some of the ion exchange is dependent on the concentration of ions. If you have a very large concentration of H+ ions in solution the bound Ca++ ions will be replaced. <"Hydrogen ions are anomalous in the lyotropic series">.

I had a long chat with an LFS owner who has stopped using mosses with his apistos because they tend to accumulate sediment, and when disturbed release clouds that affect fish, e.g. cloudy eye, rapid breathing, red gills, scratching against objects, etc. I suspect this is more to do with lack of tank hygiene due to overstocking or water changes and biological filtration not keeping up with bioload - sediment whether in soil or moss will be harmful to fish if they're full of decaying organics which are not yet fully decomposed.

I'm not sure, I've never had any problem with mosses, and some of my tanks have been extremely mossy.

cheers Darrel

 

[boofeng]

Hi all, Yes, potentially you can "recharge" your active substrate with an acid wash, it is "cation exchange". Even though multivalent ions are more strongly bound than monovalent ions (other than H+) some of the ion exchange is dependent on the concentration of ions. If you have a very large concentration of H+ ions in solution the bound Ca++ ions will be replaced. <"Hydrogen ions are anomalous in the lyotropic series">.

I'm not sure, I've never had any problem with mosses, and some of my tanks have been extremely mossy.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel. This is good to know. I'll be sure to report back if I ever have the opportunity to attempt a soil "recharge". I'm planning to use citric acid, mixed up from the dry form easily available at baking supply shops. Concentrated acids and lye are very strictly controlled here.

Do you vacuum your moss during water changes? I'm guessing no. Hmmm. Maybe Icuras and my LFS guy are actually on to something about the aquasoils. My tank with ADA Malaya has a little powdery stuff trapped in the moss. The moss in my tanks with burnt earth and peat/sand substrates are fine. (Burnt earth is fired tropical laterite soil, basically baked clay. It's cheap in my region because it's a by-product of using fire to clear rainforest for oil palm plantations. )

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm planning to use citric acid, mixed up from the dry form easily available at baking supply shops.

It should work OK, but it is a weak acid. We have a <"thread on it"> with comment by "Regani" (who is a chemist).

If you aren't in any hurry, and have room, you could just leave it outside for the rain to wash through. I did this with some <"moler clay based cat litter">, and it got rid of most of the ions and some of the perfume.

Do you vacuum your moss during water changes?

Every now and then I take it out of the tank (if I can) and give it a rinse, but it tends to stay fairly clean, possibly because I <"have Asellus as a tank janitor"> and use sand as my substrate.

cheers Darrel

 

[boofeng]

Hi all, It should work OK, but it is a weak acid. We have a <"thread on it"> with comment by "Regani" (who is a chemist).

If you aren't in any hurry, and have room, you could just leave it outside for the rain to wash through. I did this with some <"moler clay based cat litter">, and it got rid of most of the ions and some of the perfume. Every now and then I take it out of the tank (if I can) and give it a rinse, but it tends to stay fairly clean, possibly because I <"have Asellus as a tank janitor"> and use sand as my substrate.

cheers Darrel

Thanks for the rainwashing tip - I'll try that. It rains a lot here on the equator!