Ram sexing?

[StillLearningApistos]

So I hate sexing gold rams. Hate it. BUT, what are your thoughts on this one? I’ve asked a few people in random groups and seems like opinions are split, but lean one way. What do you all think? Female or sub-dom male?

 

[MacZ]

You can' barely sex domestic M. ramirezi like these just from pictures.

 

[anewbie]

The female gold ram will have a distinctly visible pink stomach which the lower ones might have hard to tell from the picture.

 

[StillLearningApistos]

The female gold ram will have a distinctly visible pink stomach which the lower ones might have hard to tell from the picture.

See, I’ve read this, but I have also heard from a couple of reputable breeders that sometimes that isn’t the case with golden Rams or that sometimes it’s often hard to tell with that variety. If that is the case, I will have to assume that the one pictured is a male.

 

[MacZ]

See, I’ve read this, but I have also heard from a couple of reputable breeders that sometimes that isn’t the case with golden Rams or that sometimes it’s often hard to tell with that variety. If that is the case, I will have to assume that the one pictured is a male.

Exactly. This breed and several others have been bred to static colouration which is not distinguishable between the sexes.

Best bet is the behaviour. That's why I say pictures don't cut it.

 

[StillLearningApistos]

Exactly. This breed and several others have been bred to static colouration which is not distinguishable between the sexes.

Best bet is the behaviour. That's why I say pictures don't cut it.

I can always just put them together and see, it’s just that I’ll feel horrible if the for sure male kills it…

Thanks for the help!

 

[MacZ]

They won't kill each other outr7ght. But still not recommendable.

 

[StillLearningApistos]

They won't kill each other outr7ght. But still not recommendable.

I don’t know. This blue-black I was going to pair it with killed three other male blue-blacks. He’s a bit on the aggressive side.

 

[MacZ]

Yuck... Domestic breeds... Malawi hybrids and colour breeds are similarly overagressive.

 

[anewbie]

What size aquarium and how was it scaped; they definitely need a place to hide. Also domestic rams have relatively weak genes and if stressed too much can die - i.e, i find them relatively fragile.

Anyway all the gold rams i had that were female had the pink belly doesn't mean that there are some without it but it ws fairly reliable for myself.

 

[StillLearningApistos]

What size aquarium and how was it scaped; they definitely need a place to hide. Also domestic rams have relatively weak genes and if stressed too much can die - i.e, i find them relatively fragile.

Anyway all the gold rams i had that were female had the pink belly doesn't mean that there are some without it but it ws fairly reliable for myself.

40 breeder, HEAVILY planted, lots of wood. He’s a monster, I’m telling you! lol.

I know people say that, but I’ve not had bad luck with rams as far as weak genes go. They’ve all been pretty healthy. I know some people say you can’t put them in a tank unless established for years, no new tanks, etc., but personally I just find that hard to believe and a bit overkill, speaking only from my personal experience with GBR and black rams, that is. Maybe I’ve just been really lucky…

 

[anewbie]

What temp to do you keep them? From what i've heard (2nd hand) black ram seem to be more robust and more aggressive. What Macz was trying ot mention is with domestic colour bred fishes frequently the warning signs are lost so another fish doesn't realize it is in danger. With my wild caught festum for example they get very dark and raise their fins before they actually attack and so other members of the group know to stay away which is a good thing since these guys can do serious damage very quickly.

 

[FishEZ]

If the fish lays eggs, then it's definitely a female. If there's no eggs laid and the tube (ovipositor) that protrudes typically when a female is in condition isn't present, then it could be a male. However from the photos you present and they are only two and both basically the same view, it's hard to be sure. However, if I were to give my experienced answer, I would look at one other indicator that works best most of the time. In this case, when the ventral fins are up against the body, (in both photos), their length can indicate the male and female sexes. When the length is so long that it reaches (even surpasses) the anus, then it's a male, if it comes up short, then it's likely to be a female. You can see this difference clearly in black rams too (also rather tougher to distinguish the difference). I can share a photo of a proven pair of black rams with you that will demonstrate that difference. You will note in this pair of mine, the female has dorsal rays similar if not as long as the male. Ventral fins of the male are definitely longer in the male than with the female.

From the length of the ventral fins in your images, my guess would be a male.

 

[StillLearningApistos]

What temp to do you keep them? From what i've heard (2nd hand) black ram seem to be more robust and more aggressive. What Macz was trying ot mention is with domestic colour bred fishes frequently the warning signs are lost so another fish doesn't realize it is in danger. With my wild caught festum for example they get very dark and raise their fins before they actually attack and so other members of the group know to stay away which is a good thing since these guys can do serious damage very quickly.

I keep them at 81 degrees F (roughly 27 C).

 

[StillLearningApistos]

If the fish lays eggs, then it's definitely a female. If there's no eggs laid and the tube (ovipositor) that protrudes typically when a female is in condition isn't present, then it could be a male. However from the photos you present and they are only two and both basically the same view, it's hard to be sure. However, if I were to give my experienced answer, I would look at one other indicator that works best most of the time. In this case, when the ventral fins are up against the body, (in both photos), their length can indicate the male and female sexes. When the length is so long that it reaches (even surpasses) the anus, then it's a male, if it comes up short, then it's likely to be a female. You can see this difference clearly in black rams too (also rather tougher to distinguish the difference). I can share a photo of a proven pair of black rams with you that will demonstrate that difference. You will note in this pair of mine, the female has dorsal rays similar if not as long as the male. Ventral fins of the male are definitely longer in the male than with the female.

View attachment 14037

From the length of the ventral fins in your images, my guess would be a male.

Wow. I was unaware that males didn’t lay eggs. Thanks for the helpful tip!

Also, on a serious note, yeah…I looked at the fins (correct term is “pelvic fins”) and came to the same conclusion. I remember seeing longer dorsal spines on female GBR’s, too, but it was always the first two spines as oppose to the second and third, from what I remember. I can, however, see what you mean in the pics you sent! I’ll live, was just hopeful it was a female. Thanks for the help!

 

[Apistoguy52]

Wow. I was unaware that males didn’t lay eggs. Thanks for the helpful tip!

Bawhahaha…..this is an Apistogramma site, males usually don’t, but some fish that are males have laid eggs

 

[anewbie]

Bawhahaha…..this is an Apistogramma site, males usually don’t, but some fish that are males have laid eggs

Hum... have you ever laid an egg? I haven't; having said that i know what you mean - don't borelli sometime switch sexes - i wonder if there is a law against transgender fishes.

 

[FishEZ]

Wow. I was unaware that males didn’t lay eggs. Thanks for the helpful tip!

Also, on a serious note, yeah…I looked at the fins (correct term is “pelvic fins”) and came to the same conclusion. I remember seeing longer dorsal spines on female GBR’s, too, but it was always the first two spines as oppose to the second and third, from what I remember. I can, however, see what you mean in the pics you sent! I’ll live, was just hopeful it was a female. Thanks for the help!

I was not trying to be funny. I was merely mentioning that over the years (especially with Discus and some other cichlids) all of the evidence may point to male and then one day suddenly the fish lays eggs. Well, that's happened to me before. So while I can assume a fish is a male, if it lays eggs, I will change my mind.

As far as I know, the ventral fins are also pelvic fins. Same fins.

 

[StillLearningApistos]

I was not trying to be funny. I was merely mentioning that over the years (especially with Discus and some other cichlids) all of the evidence may point to male and then one day suddenly the fish lays eggs. Well, that's happened to me before. So while I can assume a fish is a male, if it lays eggs, I will change my mind.

As far as I know, the ventral fins are also pelvic fins. Same fins.

Gotcha. Makes sense.

Find wise, technically, in ichthyological circles, they’re ventral fins, since the anal fin is also in the ventral side of the fish. But it doesn’t matter. I knew what you meant. And seriously, thank you for the advice/info! I very much appreciate it! I’m just trying to learn these badass groups of fishes!!!

 

[Jannik]

don't borelli sometime switch sexes - i wonder if there is a law against transgender fishes.

No they dont, atleast not after the first 6 sex determining weeks, i cant think of any freshwater fish that changes sexes, sorry to say it but people that say "my fish just changed sexes" just miss sexed their fish.

And i hope their isn't such a law, if their is, poor Clownfish.

I had a male Apistogramma sp. "Abacaxis" that wasn't distinguishable from the female for the first year and a half of its life, probably caused by bad raising of the fry from the breeder / inbreeding.


Here i got them (6months of age)

here they were 18 months of age, i gave them away at this age because they frustrated me alot, i really wanted a beautiful specimen like you can see them all over google, and a friend wanted to start with Apistogramma so i gave them to him because they were pretty inagressive and spawned regulary.