Is there anything I can do to lower KH/alka

[Apisto ranch]

I'm trying to get my KH/alka in my water lowered from 300ppm. I've heard there is something I can put in the filter to lower the KH/alka of my water. Does anyone know what it is or what I could use to lower it.
I mean with out chimacals as I'm not a big fan of adding chimacals to my tanks. All in put will be either tryed or helpful. Thanks

 

[fishgeek]

r/o is a filter, small size removes most dissolved compound
if you mean the filter of your tanks then things like deionisation resins - it depends on what your main dissolved ions are
i used to have lots of phosphate,magnesium and calcium carbonates simple phossorb bag's could be bought where i am to remove the phosphate and as with many DI resins they could be recharged to some extent through saline

or a natural DI peat (peat will also lower pH by adding acids)

andrew

 

[Apisto ranch]

I mast be totoally off base here then. I'm trying to get my KH/alka lowered from 300 at least down to 120. I have a HOB whisper 60-80 filter and a whisper 30-60 filter turning 175gph. I'm wantting to know if there's something I can put in them to lower the KH/alka of the water.

So what your saying is that I need to lower the PH levels to do this. My ph is 6.8 now with my DIY co2 system on the tank it drops to 5.8 to 6.0 right now. So I need to go lower????

 

[fishgeek]

no you dont have to lower the pH
you have to remove particles from your water

your kH is a measurement of dissolved carbonate and bicarbonate ions in water
most people know calcium carbonate as liescale, this may give you the understanding that boiling will lead to some reduction in kH as calcium carbonates sedimnet out of solution

the de-ionisation resins usually exchnage ions, H+ for cations(are they the positive ones?) and OH- for anions
this reduces your dissolved ion concentration(total hardness and carbonate hardness)
other ion exchnage resins will swap different ion(often Na+ and Cl-)

the statement about peat and lowering pH is that peat is a natural ion exchange product and it add's acidic products (natural acids like tannin, hummic etc) thereby lowering the pH by adding H+ ions and making your water more susceptible to pH change by reducing the (and i am not 100% on this exactly-ted? clarification?) carbonate hardness aswell

andrew
hope that is clearer
i would never have been any good as a teacher

 

[Andre]

Hi apisto ranch

there is a link between the ph, kh and CO2 levels in your aquarium. Are you sure about your PH and KH values? Are you adding any additional PH buffers?

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Basically if your CO2 levels stay constant and you reduce your KH then the PH will also drop. You are not dropping the kh by lowering the PH, it is rather a side effect of this.

RO is really the best way to go if you have a high KH value. The DI resins will become saturated very quickly because of this.

 

[tjudy]

I am of the opinion, and experience, that the only way to get a significant drop in KH or any other type of hardness is to use RO.

KH is a buffer that prevents the drop of pH. The many compounds that add to the KH of an aquarium are difficult, if not impossible, to totally remove without the use of water softener resins. I use a RO/DI machine to make water, but if I use the standard mixed-bed resins with my tap water 'from the street' the machine will not remove all the carbonates (KH increasing compounds). I have a whole-house water softener, however, that is loaded with resins that specifically remove carbonate, magnesium and phosphate salts, and replace them with sodium chloride salt, which is very easy for my RO/DI machine to remove. I use the softened water to run through my machine and I get 0 ppm, 0 KH, pH 6.7 water.

Carbonate, magnesium and phosphate salts are extremely stable in an aquarium. As was mentioned before, about the only time we can see the compounds come out of water is by boiling it. If you live in an area with very high KH water (around here we are KH 8 - 10) the water is very nearly saturated with the stuff and any evaporation will result in a lime deposit on the glass of th etank (or your cooking pots and bath tub).

Peat is not strong enough to have an appreciable softening/acidifying affect of hard (KH) water. I have been trying. I do not use pure RO/DI in my tanks and mix with tap water. There is enough KH in my tap water (even after the water softener) that the pH is increased to 7.3 after I mix about 30 gallons of tap into 150 gallons of RO/DI (a 5:1 pure:tap mix). The TDS hardness is where I want it at about 50 mS (25 ppm). I am trying to spawn Crenicichla regani, and want the pH to drop to about 5.8 - 6.0. I placed a box filter with peat in the tank and the pH has not dropped at all in a month. Water changes are a part of the problem though. Every water change takes out some of ions released by teh peat and adds new KH molecules. I have started to do water changes with straight RO/DI, and the pH is dropping (but the TDS in the tank is now down to 30 mS (15 ppm). THe pH has not dropped below 6.8 yet, and I suspect that there is something unmeasurable in my RO/DI that is buffering the pH to that point.

I even tried to use Acid Buffer. I added the product to straight RO/DI in my 150 gallon vat until I had a pH of 5.0 and a TDS of about 150 mS (75 ppm). I think that the pH is more crucial to dwarf cichlid spawning than TDS, up to a point. I let the circulation pump on the vat run overnight, and tested again in the morning. The pH was up to 6.3 and the TDS was still at 150 mS... so the acidifying effect of Acid Buffer is not permanent even when used in Ro/DI water.

So I am at a loss. I need to get my pH down below 6.5 at least, preferably below 6.0, for the SA dwarves I want to spawn. I am going to try a new tactic. I have ordered a box of catappa (asian almond) leaves. I am going to use them as leave litter in the tanks that I want a low pH in and use pure RO/DI with 1/4 teaspoon of pure NaCl per gallon added for conductivity. The hardness should stay below 100 mS (50 ppm) and the cattapa leaves should add nutrients and natural antibacterial agents. I do not know if the catappa will lower the pH much, but since the effect of a very low pH is a reduction in bacteria I am hoping the catappa leaves will help.

I will let you know... if I ever get the leaves... I paid the guy two weeks ago.

 

[Andre]

Hi Ted

It might be something else in that is buffering your water. Perhaps a phosphate based buffer? We are blessed with very soft water in South Africa. A fellow aquarist here has actually managed to get his water at just lower than 4 pH by letting it stand overnight with spaghnum peat moss.

 

[Apisto ranch]

OK guys I'm sorry but LOL LMAO I'm not a rocket scintis and NONE OF THAT MADED SCENTS TO ME sorry but. I'm a redneck from TEXAS. I work cattle for a living and horses. So all of that went str8 over my head can you tell me this please in laymans turmes or just plane o english.

Will the amon leafs lower the KH in my tank? I don't have a problum with the ph I can get it down to 5.5 to 5.8 by just adding more co2 into my tank over night and keep it there for as long s I need. But I'm wanting the KH lowerd and I can't aford an RO filtering system.

So from what I did understand from that is=== THERE'S NO HOPE with just adding something to my tank to help with this. Is there any other way to at least lower it some??????

 

[apistobob]

Ranch,

There are probably only a couple of options for you.

You will have the best long term success if you can remove the minerals that cause the hardness. As has been previously noted, the best method is to use a RO filter. With RO you run the water through one time and it removes much/most of the hardness.

If you can't afford a RO you don't have a lot of good choices. Depending on the volume of water you could do your water changes using distilled or RO water from a grocery store. Using either of these will dilute the concentration of your hard water resulting in better conditions. However, this gets expensive as you have to buy water for every change.

The other method that you will see widely promoted its to use peat to soften the water. Personally I have never had much success with this. I believe that it will have a very minor effect but will not be effective for a large drop like that which you need.

In short, there are no easy methods of reducing hardness other than by diluting the hard water with soft.

Bob

 

[Andre]

Hi again

Ok, Firstly do you use any products like pH up or pH down in your tank?

Using CO2 is actually a very good way to lower your carbonate hardness.

The link I posted earlier has a chart that illustrates the relationship between CO2, KH and pH. If you have a pH of 5.8 with no other buffers present and a CO2 level of 24ppm (very high) then your KH is 10ppm and not 300ppm

Basically you need to make sure your KH and pH readings are correct and that there is not other buffer present.

Regards

Andre

 

[fishgeek]

how does adding carbon dioxide remove carbonate or bicarbonate?

andrew

 

[tjudy]

Carbon dioxide reacts with water to create carbonic acid, which will disassociate in a different reaction to release H+ ions to lower the pH. Buffered water (high KH) will neutralize the acidity generated from the use of CO2 just as well as it does acidity from any other source. The difference might be rate of neutralization. The carbon dioxide + water ---> carbonic acid reaction occurs very quickly, probably faster than the KH in the water will neutralize it. Once the carbon dioxide is gone, however, the pH should rise again.

Andre is correct in that the addition of CO2 will lower the KH, but not permanently if the carbon dioxide source stops. The tests that measure KH are testing the water's ability to absorb acid. You place in a specific chemical that turns the water blue, indicating that there are buffers in the water. You add drops of another chemical and count them until the solution turns pink or clear (depending upon the test). What is happening in the vial is the carbonates are absorbing the acids in the second chemical until there are no more carbonate molecules unbonded to absorb more.. and the color changes. The carbon dioxide and carbonates in a tank act the same way. The carbonates react with the carbonic acid which will in effect reduce the reading of a KH test kit... but the carbonates are most likely still there. If a chemical reaction were to cause the carbonate-acid compound to fall apart, the KH woudl be measurable again.

In the presence of high KH, there is nothing that I am aware of that you can add to your tank to lower the pH permanently, and nothing you can add to the tank (except RO) to lower the KH permanently.

 

[Andrew C]

I am thinking of getting an RO Unit, what do you use to reconstitute your RO Water ?
From what i understand when i read different articles, the main thing to use is Kent RO Right.

My tap water has a ph of 7.6, but is very soft, 1 degrees GH and 1 degrees KH (using aquarium pharmiceuticals test kits).

After water is run through an RO Unit, what ph will the water come out at, as it will have no GH and KH ?
Then, how do you get your RO Water to a specific ph of 6.5, without increasing the GH and KH too much ?

 

[tjudy]

I am experimenting with reconstituting with catabba leaf extract that I make myself and a little aquarium salt. I should know how it doe sin a week or so.

 

[fishgeek]

andrew you dont need an r/o with water that soft from the tap

i have an r/o and reconstitute it with nothing as the water is so hard
if i want it a bit harder i just use a small proportion of tap

i would do just about anything(except move to scotland:tongue for your tap water

andrew

 

[Apisto ranch]

Ok I have used three differnt test kits on my tanks with co2 and with out co2. Now on the ph levels

with co2 I'm getting 5.9 to 6.1 on all three testing kits

without co2 I'm getting 7.0 to 7.3 all three kits

KH with co2 250 to 300

KH without co2 250 to 300 no change at all

Now I thought this to be odd very odd so I done a 50% water change on all the tanks and run the test again. Same thing on all the tanks so again a 25% water change 2 days later. Again the same reading across the broad on all the testing kits. Again I thought this to be wired.
I took some water from all the tanks to my local water treatment plant and had them run there testing equiment on the water. Now here's where things get really wired. The water in my tanks has got less KH in it then the testing throw the test kits says. But not by much as you would want or thank my test kits show 250 to 300 on all the tanks. With or without co2 the local water treatment plants testing shows.

with co2 KH at 232ppm
without co2 Kh at 293ppm

PH with co2 5.7ppm
PH without co2 7.8ppm

Now the co2 levels in the water is drum roll please a perfect 20ppm. So now I know for sure what the KH and the PH levels are without a single dout. I got one finialy question for ya'll. Can the fact that I'm adding baking soda to the co2 mix be keeping the buffer zone of the tank from lowering the KH of the water but allow it to drop my PH levels the way it is.
Now before I tell you what the guys and gals at the treatment plant says I want to hear ya'll thoughts on this. Not to brod side you or anything like that. But just to see if the answers come out to be the same reasonaning as the the guys who do this for aliving tell me what it is.

 

[tjudy]

The baking soda in the CO2 mix ( I am assuming that you are doing yeast system) should not affect the KH in th tank since the only thing that should be travelling from the yeast bottle to the tank is the gas.

The results do not surprise me... CO2 will not affect the levels of KH in the tank, but it will lower the pH. If you stop adding CO2 the pH will go back up.

The differences between your test kits and the water plants kits are probably precision differences, not accuracy. Theirs are likely a lot more precise.

 

[fishgeek]

like i intimated before
i dont see how adding CO2 can remove anything
yes it can bind to water molecules and produce carbonic acid or cause dissoacition of H+ ions to lower your pH

it doesn't surprise me at all that adding CO2 does not affect your KH

C02 + H20 will combine to produce H2CO3 (carbonic acid)

which can dissaccioate to produce H+ ions and bicarbonate


still dont see how you expect that to remove anything from the water , unless you are expecting it to sediment out

 

[Apisto ranch]

By adding the baking soda to the mix it is buffing the effect of the yeast to the tank and keeping the PH from droping to low. Your right thou it has no real effect on the KH level of the water. But by adding it to the mix the baking soda is in return adding a chimacal reaction to the mix that in return is adding gases to the water.
These gases will not come out even after going throw the diffuseing process and the gases I'm adding to the tank are keeping my KH so high and not letting them drop any. I have talked with Kathey at the water treatment plant here alot this week and she has found a chimacal that we use to use in are areas water sytems all over the world.
That in some states the goverment said no to the use of it that I can buy over the counter at a industrial supply company. To add in my filters to drop the KH of the water to zero. It's cheap and easy and works so well that in just 6hrs. after I added to the filters the reading on my KH is now the big -0- in all my tanks.

Just this morning the reading on all my tanks is= PH 5.5, GH -0-, KH -0-,
what is it you ask I wish I know!!! Kathey had some in abag in the storage room at the treatment plant and gave it to me. She's going to send me the name of it and where to get tuesday afternoon. LOL sorry guys when I get it you all will have it.
This way I can share it with everybody here thats fighting the same problum as I know there is more of us out there needing to lower the KH of are water and can't afford the money for the RO unit or have room for it.

 

[fishgeek]

when we are talking kH are we really talking about a measurement of bicarbonate and carbonate or are we measuring all buffers in the water?
phospahte buffers are not carbonate so not kH but alkalinity?(am i confused yet?)

if changing carbonate by adding CO2 is just binding it does this make the water better for the fish or have we increased the TDS?
is tds a molecule per volume or weight per volume reading?

it sounds like the magic material is just an element that binds well with carbonate? Na , though that would fizz quite a bit and be a little too dangerous
any other element with a positive charge ?


what is good water for apisto's -basically nothing dissolved in it?

black water obviously has quite a few things dissolved in it, now i am confused

andrew