No blackwater extract or anything like that. I did try some crushed coral to raise KH. I'm not keeping the water lower than 6.8. It's doing that on it's on. I wish it would stay at 6.8.Ted, I started cycling about 7 weeks ago. Added 3ppm ammonia. 3 weeks later, no change, still 3ppm ammonia, no nitrite, no nitrate. I started a thread on another forum and learned about PH crash. Checked PH for the first time and discovered a PH of 6.0 ( bottom range of my test kit ) or lower. Changed 50% of water, to get the PH back up, as I was told that low PH would hinder or stop the cycle. I added more ammonia with water change. The water change helped. I started getting some nitrites. I've been doing 50% changes twice a week for about a month now. My take is that either low PH or possibly fluctuating PH is my problem, but the PH stayed constant for the first 3 weeks. BTW I have been adding squeezings from established filters, but I fear that's not much help. I don't think my established tanks have much bacteria either because of low PH. I've bought 3 boxes of plants. I'm installing lights over all my tanks and will see if that will help. I am determined to make this thing work. Thanks again.
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Cycling new tank. soft/acid water.
- Thread starter ronv
- Start date
- Messages
- 2,822
- Location
- Stoughton, WI
OK... to make sure I have it straight, you have
- been cycling for seven weeks with a constant ammonia of 3 ppm
- two 50% changes a week and adding ammonia each time
- squeezing established filters to get a bacteria seed
- pH goes to 6.0 after going up to 6.8 after a water change
Here is my assessment... totally based upon my experience...
- 6.0 is not a pH that is so low that you need to worry about it, and I do not think that the shift from 6.8 to 6.0 is going harm anything. When I read 'pH crash' I think 4.0
- I agree that you probably do not have any bacteria in the tanks, and you are not getting much from the filter squeezing. Bacteria are sticky little buggers... I think that your established tanks are fine, but something is keeping the cycle from starting.
This would be my plan...
- Change 50% - 75% of the water but do not add any ammonia. An ammonia level of 1.0 - 1.5 ppm is plenty to get a cycle running.
- Grab some driftwood or gravel from established tanks and put it in the cycling tanks... if I had twenty tanks to cycle, this may not be possible. The live plants will help since they will have some bacteria with them. I would also use box filters in the cycling tanks with gravel from an established tank instead of carbon. I have even placed a tablespoon of established gravel in the center of a hydrosponge before... no idea if it is really effective but logic supports the idea.
- Feeder guppies... at least three or four per tank. I personally do not like 'fishless cycling'. It does not make sense to me since it is attempting to create a natural cycle without one of the important components. I usually age a tank with driftwood or gravel from an established tank for a week and then add a couple guppies or platies. I have also used ghost shrimp bofre, but they are less tolerant of nitrogen compounds... they are great canaries in establish tanks for that very reason.
Just a little advice... I know that you are pressing the issue because of an upcoming auction. Please consider that fish are obtainable at any time. If the tanks are not ready, then they are not ready. Go to the auction and take names and numbers. Personally... I rarely buy a fish through an auction. I have discovered that an inquiry to the seller will usually provide more fry at a better price anyway. It sounds like you have a great set up going.. I wish I had one like it. It will fill up faster than you expect just by getting a species or two here and there.
- been cycling for seven weeks with a constant ammonia of 3 ppm
- two 50% changes a week and adding ammonia each time
- squeezing established filters to get a bacteria seed
- pH goes to 6.0 after going up to 6.8 after a water change
Here is my assessment... totally based upon my experience...
- 6.0 is not a pH that is so low that you need to worry about it, and I do not think that the shift from 6.8 to 6.0 is going harm anything. When I read 'pH crash' I think 4.0
- I agree that you probably do not have any bacteria in the tanks, and you are not getting much from the filter squeezing. Bacteria are sticky little buggers... I think that your established tanks are fine, but something is keeping the cycle from starting.
This would be my plan...
- Change 50% - 75% of the water but do not add any ammonia. An ammonia level of 1.0 - 1.5 ppm is plenty to get a cycle running.
- Grab some driftwood or gravel from established tanks and put it in the cycling tanks... if I had twenty tanks to cycle, this may not be possible. The live plants will help since they will have some bacteria with them. I would also use box filters in the cycling tanks with gravel from an established tank instead of carbon. I have even placed a tablespoon of established gravel in the center of a hydrosponge before... no idea if it is really effective but logic supports the idea.
- Feeder guppies... at least three or four per tank. I personally do not like 'fishless cycling'. It does not make sense to me since it is attempting to create a natural cycle without one of the important components. I usually age a tank with driftwood or gravel from an established tank for a week and then add a couple guppies or platies. I have also used ghost shrimp bofre, but they are less tolerant of nitrogen compounds... they are great canaries in establish tanks for that very reason.
Just a little advice... I know that you are pressing the issue because of an upcoming auction. Please consider that fish are obtainable at any time. If the tanks are not ready, then they are not ready. Go to the auction and take names and numbers. Personally... I rarely buy a fish through an auction. I have discovered that an inquiry to the seller will usually provide more fry at a better price anyway. It sounds like you have a great set up going.. I wish I had one like it. It will fill up faster than you expect just by getting a species or two here and there.
here is a list of some things that commonly acidify water for you ron
maybe it will help you understand
Chlorine/Chloramine, i now that you hvae siad there is no chloramine in your tap water both of these produce mild hypochloric acid solutions, chlorine is easier to outgas whist chloramine will need treatment , usually based around thiosulphate and then something to remove ammonia
Carbon dioxide being added or accumulatig in sealed back situation
Some medicines especially anaesthetic agents
Nitrification as ammonia is converted to nitrate hydrogen ions are released.. bingo comes to mind!
Peat and other organic run off's , more a pond thing
perhaps you do need to increase the calcium carbonates in your water? and also i guess be aware that if this is the case the plants will also use some of these products in growth
maybe it will help you understand
Chlorine/Chloramine, i now that you hvae siad there is no chloramine in your tap water both of these produce mild hypochloric acid solutions, chlorine is easier to outgas whist chloramine will need treatment , usually based around thiosulphate and then something to remove ammonia
Carbon dioxide being added or accumulatig in sealed back situation
Some medicines especially anaesthetic agents
Nitrification as ammonia is converted to nitrate hydrogen ions are released.. bingo comes to mind!
Peat and other organic run off's , more a pond thing
perhaps you do need to increase the calcium carbonates in your water? and also i guess be aware that if this is the case the plants will also use some of these products in growth
Ted, I cycled for "3" weeks with no change in ammonia level, then started water changes. Water change does not bring the PH all the way back to 6.8. Usually 6.4-6.6 or so and it may go much lower than 6.0. That's as low as my test kit will read.
Andrew, of the 5 things you mentioned, #
4 is the problem , I think. I don't understand #2.
Here is my take on the situation, in a nut shell. Low KH is causing unstable PH which in turn inhibits bateria. Solution... Either raise the KH or use something else to absorb ammonia/ nitrite ( plants ). Is that an over simplication and do ya'll agree???
Andrew, of the 5 things you mentioned, #
4 is the problem , I think. I don't understand #2.
Here is my take on the situation, in a nut shell. Low KH is causing unstable PH which in turn inhibits bateria. Solution... Either raise the KH or use something else to absorb ammonia/ nitrite ( plants ). Is that an over simplication and do ya'll agree???
reason you dont understand number two , is becasue i cant type!!! it was supposed to be sealed bag, ie fish bag
i would agree , maybe try one of those bacterial cultures , the refrigerated one cant remember it's name and i'm not a big believer in a tub of bacteria actually living long enough to get to your tank, try this link for some info
if this doesn't help then i guess you will have to add some hardness get through the cycle and then allow a mature filter to adapt to a lower ph
i still think there is something we dont understand
best of luck
i would agree , maybe try one of those bacterial cultures , the refrigerated one cant remember it's name and i'm not a big believer in a tub of bacteria actually living long enough to get to your tank, try this link for some info
if this doesn't help then i guess you will have to add some hardness get through the cycle and then allow a mature filter to adapt to a lower ph
i still think there is something we dont understand
best of luck
- Messages
- 2,822
- Location
- Stoughton, WI
I can agree that the low KH is allowing the pH to drop, but I keep my tanks at zero KH and do not have the pH crashing. I use RO/DI water with a pH of 7.0 and my pH in the tank stays 6.0 - 6.2. Hard to say what is going on. I still think that you do not have enough bacteria, but I do not think that the pH is the reason. I base that only on having cycled tanks successfully in pH in the 5.0 range. Your pH may well be going lower than that, but you need a meter to find out. If you have a decent hydroponics dealer or nursury in the area you might be able to take them a water sample and let them meter it. I good aquarium store probably has a meter too.
ron have just seen some commments that may be of use
ammonia at levels can actually inhibit bactrial establishment and hinder the cycle, not sr whether your at those levels
also a suggestion of starting the cycle in reverse by intially adding sodium nitrate to llet bacteria establish then the ammonia
hope things are improving
andrew
ammonia at levels can actually inhibit bactrial establishment and hinder the cycle, not sr whether your at those levels
also a suggestion of starting the cycle in reverse by intially adding sodium nitrate to llet bacteria establish then the ammonia
hope things are improving
andrew
- Messages
- 1,033
- Location
- toronto, canada
hi ron, i've used fishless cycling and not had the problems you are having due to the buffering in my water. usually the nitrite shows in a week or so. if the ph is constantly rising and falling, this will inhibit bacteria growth. imo you need to maintain a steady ph to get the cycle starting. raising the temp helps as well.
adding r/o right will give you the stability you need. or, there are people who make their own from commercially available salts. here is one recipe from joe szelisi from enchanted discus website from this page:
http://www.enchanteddiscus.com/watregen.htm
>>'Using salts...
This is my preferred regeneration method. A baseline is achieved by adding 3 grams of calcium sulfate, 1 gram of calcium chloride, and 1 gram of magnesium sulfate per 20 gallons of RO water. In most cases, this achieves a conductivity reading of between 65 to 85 uS (micro Siemes). In my experience, these are perfect parameters for breeding. A reading of between 200 to 300 uS produces a perfect environment for growing out youngsters.'
note, that joe uses no phosphates like most commercially available buffers. if you are going to have 22 tanks with softwater fish, then you are going to need a LOT of r/o right. buying these salts and making it yourself will be worth it. i hope that you aren't compaining about having really soft water though. it will just take a little getting used to. buy lab grade salts, they are more pure and therefore your results will be more repeatable.
rick
adding r/o right will give you the stability you need. or, there are people who make their own from commercially available salts. here is one recipe from joe szelisi from enchanted discus website from this page:
http://www.enchanteddiscus.com/watregen.htm
>>'Using salts...
This is my preferred regeneration method. A baseline is achieved by adding 3 grams of calcium sulfate, 1 gram of calcium chloride, and 1 gram of magnesium sulfate per 20 gallons of RO water. In most cases, this achieves a conductivity reading of between 65 to 85 uS (micro Siemes). In my experience, these are perfect parameters for breeding. A reading of between 200 to 300 uS produces a perfect environment for growing out youngsters.'
note, that joe uses no phosphates like most commercially available buffers. if you are going to have 22 tanks with softwater fish, then you are going to need a LOT of r/o right. buying these salts and making it yourself will be worth it. i hope that you aren't compaining about having really soft water though. it will just take a little getting used to. buy lab grade salts, they are more pure and therefore your results will be more repeatable.
rick
Aspen, thanks for the info. The chemical mix you mentioned may be the way for me to go. Another option may be a drip system. My local tap water does not contain chloramine. What if I drip, maybe 10% daily, tap water with nothing added. Will chlorine be a problem at that rate and do you think KH and PH would remain stable???
- Messages
- 247
- Location
- Rhode Island
please excuse me for "hijacking" your thread ron. i have a question corncerning what rick posted about using r/o right as a method of regeneration for r/o water. the ph of my r/o water is around 5.5. currently i use a small amount of kent ph stable to buffer slightly and bring the ph to the low 6's. my question is should i be using r/o right or a recipe like the one i the link instead of, or in conjuction with the ph stable. i mix tap water with the r/o for the growout tanks but i would rather use a different method because of the poor quality of the tap water in my area. and ron, i hope you are getting things figured out!
scott
scott
- Messages
- 1,033
- Location
- toronto, canada
>>'What if I drip, maybe 10% daily, tap water with nothing added. Will chlorine be a problem at that rate and do you think KH and PH would remain stable???'
a drip system would suit you, but you would only find out if chlorine would be a problem by doing it. it would depend on your chlorine levels and drip rate. and yes, your ph problems would likely be ok, as long as you can vary the rate. but this would require larger heaters, and use a lot of water. i wouldn't drip heated water, cold only. i've used drips and overflows, but overflows can be a problem unless you drill the tanks instead of using a syphon type of overflow. when i set up an overflow, a few people warned me about flooding and i didn't listen. i should have drilled the tanks instead. the obvious benefit is the amount of work you'll save doing manual water changes. with 22 tanks you need to factor this is, esp when family and work ties you up now and then.
>>'my question is should i be using r/o right or a recipe like the one i the link instead of, or in conjuction with the ph stable.'
r/o right and kent stable etc are used by lots of people and seem to work very well as long as you use it sparingly, because these product raise conductivity and hardness. they are metallic salts after all. ph is not important for the fish i've raised from fry, discus, rams and many other dwarf cichlids. it is the hardness, except for a very few select species from what i've heard from others. with the chemical salts listed, hardness can be varied to any exact proportion that you'll need, with a little trial and error with your own r/o and of course to suit YOUR fish species.
i believe that you need to set up your pairs so that when they breed and there are tiny fry in the tank, that you are set up and prepared for that. you cannot be fumbling around trying to get your brine shrimp to hatch or struggling wth ph or ammonia issues at this delicate time. you need to be prepared esp for when you first get them home. i've had many pairs breed in the first few days of bring them home. this may be due to a new environment, but more likely it is the exposure to a colder water for a while, stimulating breeding hormones in the fish. the use of cold water is a very well recognised way to get fish to breed and it is very unlikely that most of us heat the bags for an hour or 2 from the time they are fished out, till they are swimming around in our own tanks. the water probably goes down to 65 deg or below for a short time, which is long enough to stimulate males and females to get busy.
working with really soft tapwater is way easier than with hard water trying to make it soft. once you get the recipe down, you simply mix the stuff to whatever the water amount you're changing and the hardness levels that you want and away you go. with most s/a dwarf species, you're not going to need to add much to get perfect breeding water.
hth, rick
a drip system would suit you, but you would only find out if chlorine would be a problem by doing it. it would depend on your chlorine levels and drip rate. and yes, your ph problems would likely be ok, as long as you can vary the rate. but this would require larger heaters, and use a lot of water. i wouldn't drip heated water, cold only. i've used drips and overflows, but overflows can be a problem unless you drill the tanks instead of using a syphon type of overflow. when i set up an overflow, a few people warned me about flooding and i didn't listen. i should have drilled the tanks instead. the obvious benefit is the amount of work you'll save doing manual water changes. with 22 tanks you need to factor this is, esp when family and work ties you up now and then.
>>'my question is should i be using r/o right or a recipe like the one i the link instead of, or in conjuction with the ph stable.'
r/o right and kent stable etc are used by lots of people and seem to work very well as long as you use it sparingly, because these product raise conductivity and hardness. they are metallic salts after all. ph is not important for the fish i've raised from fry, discus, rams and many other dwarf cichlids. it is the hardness, except for a very few select species from what i've heard from others. with the chemical salts listed, hardness can be varied to any exact proportion that you'll need, with a little trial and error with your own r/o and of course to suit YOUR fish species.
i believe that you need to set up your pairs so that when they breed and there are tiny fry in the tank, that you are set up and prepared for that. you cannot be fumbling around trying to get your brine shrimp to hatch or struggling wth ph or ammonia issues at this delicate time. you need to be prepared esp for when you first get them home. i've had many pairs breed in the first few days of bring them home. this may be due to a new environment, but more likely it is the exposure to a colder water for a while, stimulating breeding hormones in the fish. the use of cold water is a very well recognised way to get fish to breed and it is very unlikely that most of us heat the bags for an hour or 2 from the time they are fished out, till they are swimming around in our own tanks. the water probably goes down to 65 deg or below for a short time, which is long enough to stimulate males and females to get busy.
working with really soft tapwater is way easier than with hard water trying to make it soft. once you get the recipe down, you simply mix the stuff to whatever the water amount you're changing and the hardness levels that you want and away you go. with most s/a dwarf species, you're not going to need to add much to get perfect breeding water.
hth, rick
- Messages
- 138
- Location
- Canyon Creek, AZ
Ron, I use Kent RO Right to add a little something back to my RO water. It adds general hardness and does not make much of a difference with the carbonate hardness. You can add a bunch of the stuff to your water and your pH will be almost the same and if you test your kh it will be the same also but your tds will go up. If you added enough to actually make a difference in the buffering capacity, your tds would be really high. I usually use a level quarter teaspoon per five gallons of RO water and it puts my total dissolved solids around 70 ppm. The reason that I like the stuff so much is that is does not buffer my water, making it easy for me to keep the pH acidic. It does nothing to prevent pH crashes in my tanks. I avoid the crashes by just doing lots of water changes. With lots of water changes, things stay stable and the fish stay happy.
Trevor
Trevor
from trevor's response it sounds like r/o right is not the way to go here
is r/o right and such , not just commercial mixes of epsom salts baking soda etc etc
does anyone know wht these manufactures consider right for dissolved chemistry of the water?
is r/o right and such , not just commercial mixes of epsom salts baking soda etc etc
does anyone know wht these manufactures consider right for dissolved chemistry of the water?
- Messages
- 1,033
- Location
- toronto, canada
commercial mixes are blends of 'secret' ingredients.
rick
rick
- Messages
- 1,033
- Location
- toronto, canada
phosphate based buffers, like ph down will do this. i don't bother with ph. hardness is important, ph is not in most instances ime.
rick
rick
- Messages
- 138
- Location
- Canyon Creek, AZ
Ron, a stable pH is good. In my experience, the reason the pH starts to fall in a cycled tank is because the nitrate levels in the tank are getting high. If you keep your nitrates very low with lots of water changes, there will never be enough in your tank to cause the pH to drop and the pH will stay stable regardless of the buffering capacity of your water. Also, the lower the nitrates, the better it is for your fish. When I have had pH crashes in a soft water tank, it has been because I slacked off on water changes and let nitrate accumulate. If for some reason you do let things slip, healthy fish are can tolerate an occassional swing in pH. When the ph does drop due to nitrate, it is not something that just happens instantly. It is somewhat gradual since nitrate takes a little time to build up. This means you can catch it and fix it with water changes before things get bad. If you do frequent water changes then keeping the pH stable will be easy.
good luck,
Trevor
good luck,
Trevor
