New poster, but I've been lurking. I'm a long time fish keeper in a new home with soft acid water. ( PH 6.8, GH and KH about 3 ). Seems great for west africa and SA, which I'm planning to get into. I have set up my fish room ( 22 aquariums ) and am into cycling the tanks. Problem. PH is crashing and keeps interupting the cycle. I know about baking soda and changing water to keep PH up and all that. I'm about a month into fishless cycling and I think I'm getting there, finally. I'm worried about long term maintainance. It seems as tho small amounts of waste in the water causes a PH crash. I know lots of folks on this forum like low PH but how do you keep it stable? Thanks.
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Cycling new tank. soft/acid water.
- Thread starter ronv
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i use straght r/o water in almost all of my tanks in the fish room. i do 20% changes every other day and the ph is always 5.5.
in my show tanks i use a small amount of kent ph stable to buffer the water slightly and hold the ph at 6.4. with the ph stable i use 1/8 of a tsp to 33 gal barrel of r/o water and this gives me the 6.4 ph. you would probably use less with gh and kh at 3 to start because i am starting with no detecable gh or kh.
i'm sure there are plenty other methods such as crushed coral but this works for me. good luck
in my show tanks i use a small amount of kent ph stable to buffer the water slightly and hold the ph at 6.4. with the ph stable i use 1/8 of a tsp to 33 gal barrel of r/o water and this gives me the 6.4 ph. you would probably use less with gh and kh at 3 to start because i am starting with no detecable gh or kh.
i'm sure there are plenty other methods such as crushed coral but this works for me. good luck
Thanks Scott for your reply. I can't possibly change 20% every other day. ...I would be happy with my 6.8 PH if it's stable. After my tanks finish cycling, am I going to have this "PH crash" worry, or will things settle down? I'm hoping i can do my weekly 30% changes with fairly low bio-load and everyone live happily ever after. Am I dreaming? Do I need to start thinking about a continuous water change syster? Out of curiosity, why buffer your show tanks but not fish room? Thanks again for your help.
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- Rhode Island
i probably could get away with weekly changes but i like spending time in the fish room. i buffer the show tanks because i don't do water changes as often as in the fish room and i'm not concerned if the fish produce viable eggs/fry. you should be fine without continuous water change system. a friend of mine was having trouble with "ph crash" and his tap was about the same as yours if i remember correctly. what he did was put a small box filter on the tanks with crushed coral inside. the only thing is for breeding some species (a. elizabethae, m ramirezi, etc.) he has to remove the coral and do more frequent water changes. honestly i never have problems with the ph fluctuating even with no detectable kh/gh although i do ALOT of water changes and have very low bioload other than the growouts. i'm just curious what is your target ph and how low is it "crashing"? i hope you get everything stabilized. maybe someone with a little more experience can give you better advice than i can. keep us posted as to your progress and good luck.
So, it sounds like with a low KH, water changing and low bio-load is even more important than normal. Another question. Do you know specifically what causes the PH crash? Is it ammonia, nitrite, nitrate or all of the above. My problem right now is while cycling. When that completes I'll only have nitrates to worry about. Will that be easier to control. As to my "target" Ph, I'm happy right now with the 6.8 ( tap water ). In the long run, I'm excited about the possibility of some of the more delicate, low Ph fish, but let's do the 1 step at a time thing. My PH test kit only tests down to 6.0 and that is yellow on the color chart. When it crashes, the reading is bright yellow. So it very well could be much lower than that. Thanks again Scott.
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- Nothwest PA
ronv said:
You may want to get a full range or low range PH kit. I had the same issue and my PH went all the way down to 4.5. With a better test kit and some buffering mine has stabilized.
Fenster
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ron,
sera and, i think, tetra have tests that go as low as 4.5. i believe that ammonia is the biggest cause of the crash although i'm not 100% sure. another reason it's even more important to do frequent changes with low ph is because the nitrifying bacteria are less active and can even shut down altogether if it's too low. one good thing is that with a low ph ammonia becomezs ammonium which is not quite as harmful. you should consider yourself lucky with the tap water you have. the ph of my tap is over 10(test doesn't go high enough for an exact reading).
sera and, i think, tetra have tests that go as low as 4.5. i believe that ammonia is the biggest cause of the crash although i'm not 100% sure. another reason it's even more important to do frequent changes with low ph is because the nitrifying bacteria are less active and can even shut down altogether if it's too low. one good thing is that with a low ph ammonia becomezs ammonium which is not quite as harmful. you should consider yourself lucky with the tap water you have. the ph of my tap is over 10(test doesn't go high enough for an exact reading).
I drained one of my cycling 55 gal. tanks last night, refilled and added baking soda ( 8.5 tsp )to increase the KH. My target was 4. Someone told me that a KH of about at least 4 was sort of a threshold to keep PH from crashing. This morning the KH is 5, which sounds good but the PH is over 8. That's not good. What do I do??? I'm also now wondering if that abrupt change in PH killed the bacteria that I have been struggling for 5 weeks to cultivate. Sigh.
things to do , thank your lucky stars for th great water you are blessed with
find out an answer to the what cause's ph crashes
my limited understanding(your question interest's me and i feel i should know) kH is not the cause , though it is part of the answer in that kh is a measure of alkalinity or buffering capacity of the water
in saying this we are speaking about the abiltiy to absorb any acidification of the water and slow the tend to lower pH
i think that ammonia is not the answer either , as my vague recall of chemistry keeps making me want to blurt out that ammonia is alkaline in nature (it has been a long time and i cant explain why i think this)
i believe the pH drop may be a biological acton
basically i think that breakdown of plant/animal proteins and fats in water by bacteria release's some acidic byproducts
i think that some of these are the same hummic/tannic acids that we all seek to add to our water from that decayed vegetable matter peat!
i also think that peat may in itself have some buffering capacity, as it acts a bit like a deionising resin or a cation exchange substance and chelate some compounds to itself
i use primarily r/o water , and often straight, i hvae thought that i do not sufferph crashes because my tap water is so damn hard to start with that even after ro/di filtration it still has some buffering capabilty
i often have peat in my tanks as substrate
i have had a tank stable for 1 yr with high bioload , bolivian rams spawning and no room for growout, at a Ec/tds reading 10-20ppm so very low
hopefully some of the more knowledgeable members maybe able to give us some further understanding
this is not an answer just my thoughts in the hope that others may help answer the ph crash question
ted?
andrew
find out an answer to the what cause's ph crashes
my limited understanding(your question interest's me and i feel i should know) kH is not the cause , though it is part of the answer in that kh is a measure of alkalinity or buffering capacity of the water
in saying this we are speaking about the abiltiy to absorb any acidification of the water and slow the tend to lower pH
i think that ammonia is not the answer either , as my vague recall of chemistry keeps making me want to blurt out that ammonia is alkaline in nature (it has been a long time and i cant explain why i think this)
i believe the pH drop may be a biological acton
basically i think that breakdown of plant/animal proteins and fats in water by bacteria release's some acidic byproducts
i think that some of these are the same hummic/tannic acids that we all seek to add to our water from that decayed vegetable matter peat!
i also think that peat may in itself have some buffering capacity, as it acts a bit like a deionising resin or a cation exchange substance and chelate some compounds to itself
i use primarily r/o water , and often straight, i hvae thought that i do not sufferph crashes because my tap water is so damn hard to start with that even after ro/di filtration it still has some buffering capabilty
i often have peat in my tanks as substrate
i have had a tank stable for 1 yr with high bioload , bolivian rams spawning and no room for growout, at a Ec/tds reading 10-20ppm so very low
hopefully some of the more knowledgeable members maybe able to give us some further understanding
this is not an answer just my thoughts in the hope that others may help answer the ph crash question
ted?
andrew
Andrew, I think it is ammonia that is causing my crash. I'm sure I don't understand the science as well as you, but part of my problem is with tanks I'm trying to fishless cycle. The crash happens before nitrites or nitrates are produced. If I keep struggling ( water change after water change add more ammonia, etc. ) the cycle eventually starts making progress. After 6 weeks of this, nitrite may be about to peak and I'm showing nitrates. No matter how much water I change, tho, 2-3 days later my PH is <6. Established tanks or cycling tanks. I know it's possible to keep soft acid water aquariums ( thats why I specifically picked this website ). You folks should be more familiar with this than anyone. Ya'll are telling me I'm blessed to have this water, and I am excited about the possibilities, but right now I'm about ready to sell this house and move back to the liquid rock I'm used to and buy some more frontosa.....Nah, just kidding. Thanks for all the posts. Ya'll hang with me, please.
right how bout this then ron
leave your tanks alone , let them cycle without adding buffer's , nor bothering too much with water changes
and measure your pH
what are you calling a crash? just below 6.0?
the ammonia shouldn't be the acidifier more likely the nitrate and nitrite as there are acid's of these compounds
plants in the tank will utilise some of these
basically if their are no fish involved see how low your ph will go
if there are fish involved add plants and see if they help atabilise things (even nasty old duckweed sucks up nitrites fast- justa pain to get rid off if you dont want)
and hopefully someone smarter than either of us will help us out
TED?
andrew
leave your tanks alone , let them cycle without adding buffer's , nor bothering too much with water changes
and measure your pH
what are you calling a crash? just below 6.0?
the ammonia shouldn't be the acidifier more likely the nitrate and nitrite as there are acid's of these compounds
plants in the tank will utilise some of these
basically if their are no fish involved see how low your ph will go
if there are fish involved add plants and see if they help atabilise things (even nasty old duckweed sucks up nitrites fast- justa pain to get rid off if you dont want)
and hopefully someone smarter than either of us will help us out
TED?
andrew
Andrew, I don't know how low the PH goes. The test kit I have only goes down to 6.0. I need to get another, but haven't yet. I'm convinced, however, that it goes low enough to stop, or seriously slow the cycle. If I didn't change water, I don't think it would ever cycle. I'm sure plants would help, but I had planned to have only room light in my new fish room. No tank lights. I may need to rethink that. My immediate problem is this. I really need to get my new tanks ready for fish by next weekend. Local fish club is having the spring auction 3-20-05. I'm forced into drastic action. I've added baking soda to all my cycling tanks. I have determined the amount to add to bring my KH to 4. So that's my target. I'm hoping thats enough buffering to hold the PH steady. Problem is, it takes my PH up to 7.6. That's not what I want but I feel that the most important thing is the KH, in order to complete the cycling process. Then I'll figure out what to do next????
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- Canyon Creek, AZ
I have heard that biological filteration can not function at an extremely low pH but I don't know how low is to low. At one point, I had a grow out tank that had a pH of 4.8 due to the 80 ppm of nitrate. There were no traces of ammonia or nitrite so the process must not have been interupted. By the way, the fry were fine and I learned that is probaly better for my fish to miss a few meals while I am out of town than have somebody feed them. Although they are well intentioned, most non-fishkeepers just can't seem to resist feeding extra because they think the fish look so hungary.
Trevor
Trevor
i personally dont believe the suggestions that bacteria cant cope at low pH
bacteria are found in much wider enviroment climates than man or fish , they are exceedingly hardy
perhaps alkaline biobacter are not the same as acid , though as long as the tank is always tending to the same it shouldn't be a problem
i use a hannah pH meter and have tanks at 5.5 with n o dysfunction of my filtration
as for the no lights try java moss the fish love it and it grows in tanks of mine with just ambient light
holds lots of little food for the fry , when they come
if you are doing water changes during your cycle you will starve any bacteria of food and slow their replication down , if no fish in the tanks dont bother with frequent water chnages , i would be less worried about the pH being below your measurement capability
perhaps get some other method of testing low pH and it may halp you relax if you find pH stable at 5.9 say
bacteria are found in much wider enviroment climates than man or fish , they are exceedingly hardy
perhaps alkaline biobacter are not the same as acid , though as long as the tank is always tending to the same it shouldn't be a problem
i use a hannah pH meter and have tanks at 5.5 with n o dysfunction of my filtration
as for the no lights try java moss the fish love it and it grows in tanks of mine with just ambient light
holds lots of little food for the fry , when they come
if you are doing water changes during your cycle you will starve any bacteria of food and slow their replication down , if no fish in the tanks dont bother with frequent water chnages , i would be less worried about the pH being below your measurement capability
perhaps get some other method of testing low pH and it may halp you relax if you find pH stable at 5.9 say
Andrew, it's not just cycling tanks. I'm having trouble with tanks that have been running for months. Example: 55gal., 6 young severums 3-4". I changed 50% water yesterday. This morning PH <6.0, ammonia .25. How is that possible if bacteria is functioning properly? The only way I'm able to keep fish alive is by doing massive water changes 2-3 times a week. I have been keeping fish for 25 years ( in another state, in hard water ). This is different, for some reason. The ONLY conclusion I can reach is that, even small amounts of fish waste cause PH to decrease ( overnight ) and this crash interupts the nitrogen cycle. How else can the presents of ammonia in the above example, be explained??? I need to get a low range PH kit, as you have suggested, but it doesn't matter. However low it is, it is killing my bacteria. I am convinced of that. Please help me find another answer. Thanks again for your continued interest.
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- Stoughton, WI
I'm on this one late.. sorry. Been out of touch lately.
Sounds to me like you live in a place with tap water that is A) treated with chloramine and B) low in alkalinity buffers (KH). I am basing this on your description of the pH crashing immediately following a water change, combined with an elevated ammonia reading. If you are using a Nessler's reagent test kit for ammonia, the chloramine will read as ammonia (chloramines are not great either, but they can at least be eliminated with a product like Amquel).
I am not an expert... but I do know that nitrites and nitrates are not in themselves acids, but nitric and nitrous acid will release those compounds in an aqueous solution. The source of nitrite and nitrate in the biological cycle is not acid, so I would count those out as a source of the problem.
I suspect that the tap water is pretty well oxygenated when it hits your tank, which will bring the pH up. After twenty four hours the O2 level drops to normal and the water pH drops accordingly, because I suspect your tap KH is less than 5. Try this test... let a glass of tap water sit on the counter overnight. Test the pH immediately after running the water from the tap, and again the next day. If the pH drops you will know it is not your tank... it is the tap water.
Be aware that sodium bicrabonate is not a long term fix for pH. In aqueous solution the compound disassociates into sodium ions and carbonate ions. The carbonates will react weakly with excess hydrogen ions (acid makers), this is what brings the pH up at first. The reactions create carbon dioxide and carbonic acid, and the sodium ions increase conductivity. In short, the long term effect (a couple days) will be a reduction of alkalinity buffers. Calcium buffers are more stable. A good method is to use a commercial Tanganyika buffer... if you feel you need to buffer at all.
Bacteria can tolerate a very low pH. I have cycled tanks at pH 5. What the bacteria may not be able to handle is lots of fluctuation in pH. If the tap water is the problem, try aging the water a day or two with an airstone. If the tap water is not the problem, then there is something in the tank causing the pH drop. You will need to find it and get rid of it. If you are trying to cycle for new fish, you might want to consider bare tanks with clay pots and sponge filters... a classic quarantine set up. They will cycle faster and in a more controlled setting. It never hurts to quarantine for a couple weeks anyway.
Sounds to me like you live in a place with tap water that is A) treated with chloramine and B) low in alkalinity buffers (KH). I am basing this on your description of the pH crashing immediately following a water change, combined with an elevated ammonia reading. If you are using a Nessler's reagent test kit for ammonia, the chloramine will read as ammonia (chloramines are not great either, but they can at least be eliminated with a product like Amquel).
I am not an expert... but I do know that nitrites and nitrates are not in themselves acids, but nitric and nitrous acid will release those compounds in an aqueous solution. The source of nitrite and nitrate in the biological cycle is not acid, so I would count those out as a source of the problem.
I suspect that the tap water is pretty well oxygenated when it hits your tank, which will bring the pH up. After twenty four hours the O2 level drops to normal and the water pH drops accordingly, because I suspect your tap KH is less than 5. Try this test... let a glass of tap water sit on the counter overnight. Test the pH immediately after running the water from the tap, and again the next day. If the pH drops you will know it is not your tank... it is the tap water.
Be aware that sodium bicrabonate is not a long term fix for pH. In aqueous solution the compound disassociates into sodium ions and carbonate ions. The carbonates will react weakly with excess hydrogen ions (acid makers), this is what brings the pH up at first. The reactions create carbon dioxide and carbonic acid, and the sodium ions increase conductivity. In short, the long term effect (a couple days) will be a reduction of alkalinity buffers. Calcium buffers are more stable. A good method is to use a commercial Tanganyika buffer... if you feel you need to buffer at all.
Bacteria can tolerate a very low pH. I have cycled tanks at pH 5. What the bacteria may not be able to handle is lots of fluctuation in pH. If the tap water is the problem, try aging the water a day or two with an airstone. If the tap water is not the problem, then there is something in the tank causing the pH drop. You will need to find it and get rid of it. If you are trying to cycle for new fish, you might want to consider bare tanks with clay pots and sponge filters... a classic quarantine set up. They will cycle faster and in a more controlled setting. It never hurts to quarantine for a couple weeks anyway.
Ted, thanks for jumping in. I'm at a loss. To answer your questions. No chloramine in tap water. Low KH ~2. Aquar. Phar. test kits ( all new ). I'm pulling out my log book ( I've been testing and head scraching for several weeks now. ) I have let tap water stand overnight and then test for KH, GH but I don't see a record of testing for PH. I think I have, and didn't see anything unusual but I am doing it again tonight to be sure. Ted, just to give you a quick fix on the situation, I'm trying to cycle about 20 tanks in a new fish room. I also have four established aquariums. I've had trouble with the established tanks as long as they have been running ( months ). I change a lot of water. Thats the only way I can keep them alive. See the post above about the severum tank. If a fluctuating PH will damage the bacteria, then maybe you have hit on something. Tap water is 6.8. Tank water is much lower. When I change water, I usually do 50%. I know it changes PH, but the fish survive. Is bacteria more sensitive than the fish? The cycling tanks are mostly just as you described. Bare, sponge filters. Thanks again.
are the tanks linked to a central filter, is there any plumbing that you have used that may have products added during manufacture
i know it has been said that some plumbing has antifungal agents that may leach out ?
clutching now
andrew
ps does anyone know why we suggest that tanks with low buffering tend to acidify then?
i assumed it had to do with natural acids in fish excretion products ?
carnivore's usuually have a pH no more acidic than 6.0 !!
i know it has been said that some plumbing has antifungal agents that may leach out ?
clutching now
andrew
ps does anyone know why we suggest that tanks with low buffering tend to acidify then?
i assumed it had to do with natural acids in fish excretion products ?
carnivore's usuually have a pH no more acidic than 6.0 !!
Hi again Andrew. No central filter. I have a central air supply, distributed by 1" PVC ( new from Home Depot ). New linear piston air pump from Jehmco. The air valves are from my old fish room. Air line tubing is new. All cycling tanks are using either sponge filters or box filters. Some of these are old and some new. Established tanks have HOB or canister filters, as well as some air driven. BTW, I let some tap water sit overnight ( with bubbles ) and checked PH this morning. No change in PH.
I have ordered three boxes of plants. Should be here tomorrow. I started a new thread under the plant section. Maybe that will help????
Keep clutching, Andrew. I need all the help I can get.
I have ordered three boxes of plants. Should be here tomorrow. I started a new thread under the plant section. Maybe that will help????
Keep clutching, Andrew. I need all the help I can get.
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- 2,822
- Location
- Stoughton, WI
Hmmm... pH 6.8 is not high, and a KH of 2 is low. You are keeping the pH lower than 6.8 how? Just what they are falling to, or are you adding anything like Blackwater Extract or Discus Buffer?
You mentioned that you are attmepting a 'fishless cycling'. Did you use a procuct to start it? Personally, the way I 'fishless cycle' is to use dirty tank water from an established tank and let it run without water changes for a week, then add fish.
If you are changing the water a lot in the tanks without fish, you might want to try just leaving them alone for a week or so and see if the tests improve.
You mention 50% water changes. How often are you doing that? I tend to change less more frequently... say 10% - 20% once every 5-7 days. I only use 50% changes whenever I have been medicating, or I have done a major overhaul on a tank and have taken the fish out anyway. That is just a personal preference.. I know that a lot of people do it differently.
You mentioned that you are attmepting a 'fishless cycling'. Did you use a procuct to start it? Personally, the way I 'fishless cycle' is to use dirty tank water from an established tank and let it run without water changes for a week, then add fish.
If you are changing the water a lot in the tanks without fish, you might want to try just leaving them alone for a week or so and see if the tests improve.
You mention 50% water changes. How often are you doing that? I tend to change less more frequently... say 10% - 20% once every 5-7 days. I only use 50% changes whenever I have been medicating, or I have done a major overhaul on a tank and have taken the fish out anyway. That is just a personal preference.. I know that a lot of people do it differently.
