Creating harems with A. caca(u?)toides

[P. sacrimontis]

Well, for anyone from aquahobby, this is Nonamethefish...

I've been fooling with an idea and would like some input.

I currently own a 46 gallon bowfront tank. It looks a little too embarrasing to show you guys right now(driftwood pieces 30 watts of lighting, a couple miserable normal and windelov java ferns) but the only occupants of this tank right now are one(soon to be 2 ) bristlenose plecos, and 3 bluefin killies(may not be permanent).

I got a deal from someone on another forum(who is being overrun by ivory monties) for 12-15 ivory montezumae swords for shipping. We exchanged messages, and I found out that he/she was keeping nanochromis with the swords. I will most likely accept the offer.

I would like to see if I could possibly make a harem of cacautoides in this tank. Its going to be heavily planted when I get this idea up. I've got a couple questions.

Is my tank big enough to support a harem? How many females will one male take(I'm thinking of starting with 2-3)?

How would you encourage the formation of a harem opposed to a pair?(my guess according to TheKrib's archives....keep it peaceful with no fry eating predators).

Are the wild type apistos more vigorous then the artificial strains? i've seen Wild caught apistos here, but they are pretty expensive and most are all old male cacautoides.

Also, as far as prepared food go, is there anything that stands out as particularly good? Are liquid vitamins a waste of money?(of course, I will feed them frozen and live too).

Last question, do cockatoos eat gammarus(scuds)? I've got a nice sized culture going, but the fish I keep right now(hets bluefins etc.) can only use the small-medium ones.

 

[Neil]

P. sacrimontis,
You have been around for awhile, but I think that I have neglected to give you your welcome, so...

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

Is my tank big enough to support a harem? How many females will one male take(I'm thinking of starting with 2-3)?

Yes, I think so. You would probably be pressing it with many more than that, but it should work with all the structure that you have in your tank.

How would you encourage the formation of a harem opposed to a pair?(my guess according to TheKrib's archives....keep it peaceful with no fry eating predators).

Well, that is pretty good advice. Along with that is structure to break-up territories and offer refuge, a good diet for conditioning that is shared by all females to insure that no-one is weak, and possibly some ditherfish to increase the protective nature of each female, while distracting their focus on each other some.

Are the wild type apistos more vigorous then the artificial strains? i've seen Wild caught apistos here, but they are pretty expensive and most are all old male cacautoides.

Not necessarily. There are pluses and minuses to wild-caught fish. Quality tank-raised can be great. Younger fish are probably a little more desirable. If you think that they are old, they probably are. Because of the typical lifespan of Apistogramma spp., you may have better luck with young adults.

Also, as far as prepared food go, is there anything that stands out as particularly good? Are liquid vitamins a waste of money?(of course, I will feed them frozen and live too).

I have had pretty good luck with OSI marine flake food. They seem to eat that better(relative) than most other prepared foods I have tried. I have also used vitamins, but primarily in feeding BBS before feeding them to my fish. No comment of efficacy, but it didn't hurt.

Last question, do cockatoos eat gammarus(scuds)? I've got a nice sized culture going, but the fish I keep right now(hets bluefins etc.) can only use the small-medium ones.

I have never tried it and don't know much about them. They may be too big, but if not I am sure that cacatuoides would cherish them.

Neil

 

[P. sacrimontis]

Okay cool!

So how many little caves would you reccomend(per female)?

How widely spaced would they be?

Any suggestion for unobtrusive caves to blend in with the planted tank?

What would I do as the harem grows?

What would be the best size? I've seen little Double Reds for about 4-5 dollars. They were less than an inch. The WC were about 1 1/2 to 2 inches

Thanks in advance!

 

[Neil]

So how many little caves would you reccomend(per female)?

At least one per female.

How widely spaced would they be?

As far from the others as possible in your given quarters. Hopefully, you can divide the territories with other structure(plants, rocks, wood, etc.) as well.

Any suggestion for unobtrusive caves to blend in with the planted tank?

wood, java moss covered clay pots, coconuts, leaf litter, broadleaf plants, rocks piled to make caves, etc.

What would I do as the harem grows?

Pull the fry.

What would be the best size? I've seen little Double Reds for about 4-5 dollars. They were less than an inch. The WC were about 1 1/2 to 2 inches

That is up to you. Get the ones you like the best. Smaller fish are likely younger too and will probably have a longer life with more breeding time available to you.

Good luck,
Neil

 

[P. sacrimontis]

After going dormant for 8 months, in the mean time the tank revamping was done...here is the tank

It isn't heated, which is fine for the current inhabitants(montezumae swords) it is around 70 degrees as of now...will that still work for apistos?

 

[aspen]

a. borellii would do fine at that temp. most apistos are warm water fish.

rick

 

[P. sacrimontis]

So cacuatoides is warmwater? Hmmm....haven't seen borelli offered anywhere here.

maybe a list of coolwater apistos is in order.

 

[Mike Wise]

maybe a list of coolwater apistos is in order.

There aren't many but other apistos that can handle cool water for extended periods include:

A. commbrae
A. trifasciata
A. luelingi
A. payaminonis

Others can handle such temperatures for a month or 2, but it will slow their metabolism to the extent that they won't eat well & will be more susceptable to diseases & parasites. Any apisto that might breed at this temperature will likely give you 90%+ females.

 

[LyreTail]

I have had problems creating harems - seems like dominant female and male tend to chase the other females around until they die

 

[P. sacrimontis]

Great replies!

MikeWise/Lyretail: i'll check those species out-I heard only a few species could form harems and even then it didn't always happen. Any successful harem owners mind commenting?

The water is around 7.5 and moderately hard. I'm not limiting myself to apistos, so any other dwarfs that you think may work(not neccessarily in harems) would be nice. Small size would be a plus factor.

 

[Mike Wise]

LyreTail

If subdominant fish are being chased that bad, then there aren't enough hiding places for the other fish or the tank is too small. The best way to decorate a harem tank is to break up the tank into smaller compartments with plants and wood, so that there is no place where fish can see across most of the tank. Then make sure that there are at least 2 caves for each fish to hide in & that these hiding places are well distributed throughout the tank. Ideally, each female should have an area of about 1 ft/30 cm in diameter that she can call her own. That should do the trick. I once had a breeding colony of A. cacatuoides (Putumayo) - 2 males & 3 females in a tank that had a bottom surface of only 18 x 16 in./45 X 40 cm! It produced fry regularly and there were no split fins or dead fish. Of course, most of the tank was covered from top to bottom by Java Moss, so no one could see more than a few inches/cm in any direction. I don't recommend this set up unless you have a LOT of apisto keeping experience. In a way it simulates the leaf litter habitat that Dr. Römer describes in the Rio Negro, where several hundred apistos live in a square meter of stream.

P. sacrimontis

If you want to keep the tank as cool as it is now, I would suggest some of the smaller species of Gymnogeophagus. They can handle (and actually need) these lower temperatures. None of the fish that I listed will do particularly well in cool water tanks over long periods. If you are willing to raise it to 75ºF/24ºC, then Laetacara dorsigera is a wonderful little acara for a planted tank. You might also consider some of the West African species, too, but cool, hard & alkaline water is not the ideal condition for Apistogrammas & many West Africans.

 

[LyreTail]

I have since changed my tank and made a whole lot of caves, added plants, wood and enough Java moss to fill 1/5th the tank - perhaps I should try it again since the bedraggaled female has had a chance to recoup after several months in a different tank. I intended to keep 2 females and 1 alpha male in the 20 gal tank - foot print is 2 foot by 1 foot

Insteresting thing is I have 6 true zebra plecos ( L46) also in this tank and have not seen any harm to them yet even though the female is guarding a large brood.

 

[Apistt_ed]

..

Hello,
One of my most successful harems is A. Trifasciata left alone in a 20gal long tank consisted of one male and 5 females. I have tried harems (A.Trifasc) in tanks up to 55gallon tanks and this also works, and is actually better as the fry of previous spawns once reaching pre-maturity really cause too much of a problem for the new fry. I am finding now that the # of fry is slowly getting polished off by their older siblings and I am in the process of re-locating them all into a 55gal tank to stop this. The male is a stud with all the females in there of course :wink: but he is really well tempered and doesn't seem to bother the females too much. There are no problems with the females either as somehow they have timed their spawns into intervals within themselves. Once one female has spawned, there's at least another female who is near breeding and the male is then preoccupied. There have been some interesting things I have noticed though with harems like these, females who haven't already or are not ready to spawned will stalk fry from another female and slowly change into spawning dress and kidnap fry for her own. Once the fry are distinguishable as male/female, the males are usually driven away to the extremities of the tank and are no longer tolerated by the dominant male. Once the female has laid again, she doesn't tolerate any of the previous fry though.
I have only kept successful harems with A. Trifasciata, A. Cacatuoides, A. Wangenflecken, A. Hongsloi II, and Rams.
One thing I have noticed from these harems is that some of them will not work in cramped conditions. I have noticed that Cacatuoides and Wangenflecken success is directly correlated to tank size. I can only see this as because these two species are the ones with dominant females. In these cases, the dominant females would search out other females and constantly fight which ends in death of that one. My A. cacatuoides and A. Wangenflecken have only been successful in my tanks... 90gal and up. It seems like as lyretail said earlier the smaller the tank, the more "clutter" is needed to difuse aggression. In that case, I really don't see a good enough reason to have apistos as you will not see them too often. In a sparsely planted 90gal I have kept 2 male cacatuoides with 8females and produced fry almost every other week from different females. For your tank size, 3 females is fine for one male. As for Cacatuoides being strictly warmer water species, I have kept them at about room temp without any problems. IMO A. Cacatuoides can handle the cooler water just as good as A. borellii. They aren't as productive but still attained fry. That's all I have to offer... hope it helps and good luck.

john