Cacatuoides female with eggs?

[Astrid]

I have 2 females and one male in my 17 gallon planted tank. The first female bred with the male last wednesday (January 7) and the second, sub-dominant female on friday (January 9). On friday I also changed 2-3 gallons of water and that may have been the reason why the first female lost the eggs, I dont know.
The second female is still taking care on the eggs (well, I have not seen the eggs, but she is still guarding the cave). But because she is sub-dominant, the dominant female takes her away from food. I have to feed them in two different corners of the tank, but I am not sure if she gets enough food.

My questions are:
Are there any eggs, or even fry, when I havent seen any yet? Now its the fifth day after laying eggs.
Should I remove the male and dominant female? I dont find it necessary when there is a perspective that there wont be any fry for now.

I have found out a lot of very interesting ways how these fish communicate with each other. Although I am not sure about the female's behaviour yet, so Im asking for a help.

And some photos, to make this post a little more interesting... (although they are not photos of the female, but the male)

 

[Dan724]

NICE PICS!!

Hey I love those pics!! I'm a newbie, with just a pair rescued from LFS. My pair have there own issues(female in the mood, male not), I would really like to hear what more experienced members have to say about your situation! good luck

 

[Astrid]

NICE PICS!!

Thanks Dan.
This topic should be some kind of continuance to this one

The other interesting thing I noticed in female's behaviour is that some time she is taking small rocks in her mouth out of her cave. The small rocks are about 5-6 mm large. (The gravel consists of these and smaller rocks).

She is still guarding the cave, but doesnt spend so much time in the cave, mostly only around it.

I would really like to hear what more experienced members have to say about your situation! good luck

I hope that someone would reply.... and that these my questions arent too trivial...

 

[Randall]

Breeding Apistogramma cacatuoides

Dear Astrid,

Well, it sounds like your Apistogramma cacatuoides are acting like Apistogramma!

With young fish that are spawning for the first time, it is not uncommon for things not to work out. Call it inexperience. Sometimes it takes our fish two or three false starts until they get it right, so please don't feel bad if you don't realize any fry on this first attempt. What's important is that your fish are spawning, so you must be doing something right.

From your description, I don't know exactly what's going on in your 17-gallon tank, but can share some impressions with you.

The water change that you performed may or may not have had anything to do with the first female losing (eating?) her eggs. Two-three gallons is not a lot of water, so disruption was probably minimal. Just to play it safe, in the future it may be a good idea to perform a water change when you see your fish courting and devoting a lot of attention to a spawning site and not after they've spawned.

If the first female is taking the second female's food, your method of handling the situation sounds just fine to me. If you still don't think female #2 is getting enough to eat, then try feeding your fish smaller portions twice a day on opposite sides of the tank.

"My questions are:
Are there any eggs, or even fry, when I havent seen any yet? Now its the fifth day after laying eggs.
Should I remove the male and dominant female? I dont find it necessary when there is a perspective that there wont be any fry for now.

The other interesting thing I noticed in female's behaviour is that some time she is taking small rocks in her mouth out of her cave. The small rocks are about 5-6 mm large. (The gravel consists of these and smaller rocks)."

She is still guarding the cave, but doesnt spend so much time in the cave, mostly only around it.

Eggs will usually hatch after 48 hours at 76 degrees F. It then takes another five days until the larvae are free swimming, so the earliest you can expect to see fry is after seven days.

Unless there is an aggression problem, there is no reason to remove the male and other female. Should there be fry, males are important because they tend to guard the territory.

Usually digging is a sign that fish are preparing to spawn. If your female is removing gravel from her cave, she is probably preparing to spawn; or if she already has, she may be "keeping house." Usually, though, digging precedes spawning and doesn't occur after the fact.

I hope you find my impressions helpful. If not, please feel free to post additional questions. Thank you for sharing your beautiful photos.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Astrid]

Breeding Apistogramma cacatuoides

Hi Randall
First of all I want to thank you very much for your post. I didnt expect that someone would do so much work and spend time on writing so long message.
I was afraid that things like these were discussed somewhere here before and one would think that my questions are... trivial

But back to your post...

Well, it sounds like your Apistogramma cacatuoides are acting like Apistogramma!

I hope so I really enjoy watching their behavour. Im trying to understand what they want to say to each other... Its new for me.

From your description, I don't know exactly what's going on in your 17-gallon tank...

What exactly do you mean? Ive written almost everything about it in the previous topic: http://forum.apistogramma.com/viewtopic.php?t=1525. I may have written this in it but I found it a little too long... and I had also NEW questions to ask...

OK, in short, I have 17 gallon planted tank where I have placed 1 male and 2 females of my Ap. cacatuoides. The other male and the other 2 females are in my 55 gal community tank.
Ive put the male and 2 females in the smaller tank because I wanted to breed them. Ive also bought some distilled water to mix it with my tap water. So now I have gH 8 and kH 4. I have also some peat in the tank to decrease pH.
All 4 females has spawned within one week. The first female spawned 5 days after I put her in the tank where was the male.

What's important is that your fish are spawning, so you must be doing something right.

I think so. When I arrived home today, I noticed that the dominant female is back in the coconut shell, has a thin belly, is aggresive to all the fish near her shell and also her coloration has changed... I think she has layed some eggs again. Is it possible? The last time she spawned was last wednesday, she lost them on friday. So it is 9 days after first spawn now... :?

The water change that you performed may or may not have had anything to do with the first female losing (eating?) her eggs. Two-three gallons is not a lot of water, so disruption was probably minimal.

The other reason could be that while the male was spawning with the second male (which is still guarding the cave), he also entered the coconut shell, where was the first female with eggs. He may have eaten them that time, but I am not sure.

I changed the water because someone here told me that water cleaness is very important... But after I did it and the famele lost the eggs, my father told me that I am paying too much attention to them and so they dont need so much water change...

Just to play it safe, in the future it may be a good idea to perform a water change when you see your fish courting and devoting a lot of attention to a spawning site and not after they've spawned.

Hm, that sounds like a good idea, but as I see it now, it difficult to see the moment before spawn... And there are 2 females, so while the first one is guarding eggs, the second one is only preparing for it... Oh, well

If the first female is taking the second female's food, your method of handling the situation sounds just fine to me. If you still don't think female #2 is getting enough to eat, then try feeding your fish smaller portions twice a day on opposite sides of the tank.

Yes, I should try it next time. But today has the situation changed and the dominant female is still in the coconut, also during the feeding time. Only twice she went out of it, swam quickly to the food, ate as much as she was able in that few seconds and then hurried back to the coconut.
The second female spends more time out of her cave, but also returns there regularly.

Eggs will usually hatch after 48 hours at 76 degrees F. It then takes another five days until the larvae are free swimming, so the earliest you can expect to see fry is after seven days.

Thanks. This is what I wanted to hear. Temperature in my tank is 25-26 degrees C, that is 77-78 degrees F. Today it is the seventh day, so I may see some fry tomorrow or the day after tomorrow- I hope so...

Unless there is an aggression problem, there is no reason to remove the male and other female. Should there be fry, males are important because they tend to guard the territory.

Thats interesting. I wasnt sure how would the male behave to fry. If he would not try to eat them.

Usually digging is a sign that fish are preparing to spawn. If your female is removing gravel from her cave, she is probably preparing to spawn; or if she already has, she may be "keeping house." Usually, though, digging precedes spawning and doesn't occur after the fact.

Hmm the female which is still guarding the cave has round belly again, so she seems to be prepared for another spawn again. But she is still going back to her cave and removing the gravel sometimes... I dont undersatand it...
And it also looks that the female's hierarchy has changed. The subdominant female is the boss in the tank now...

Thank you for sharing your beautiful photos.

You are welcome.
First I was not sure if I should post them... now Im happy I did.

Astrid

 

[aspen]

astrid, what you are doing is just fine. if it were me, i would soften the water a little more, and you will get more fry hatched out. but, with the parms you have, there will be at least 25% hatch rate, maybe up to 50% which may be quite enough for you?

do not be surprised if the first few tries are not productive. with time, both females will likely become great parents. cacatuoides will do almost all of the work for you.

when you change water, there is not much need to be invasive. i use a long 3/8" (9 mm) tube tied to a stick to get into the corners, then syphon the water back in so as not to turn everything upside down and also not to disturb them too much. fish get used to you doing light work, if you are in there every day- even if they have fry.

your little group in the 17 gal will produce fry on a cycle if they didn't make it the last time. soon enough you will have 2 small groups, and your next problem will be when to remove the fry. have you got another tank ready?

there is nothing wrong with shooting a little bbs around each or the caves for the females. this is good food for them, and will soon get eaten by the babies when they are old enough to take it. this will also get you into the cycle of producing bbs, which imo is a necessity to get decent spawn sizes growing out. when i am raising fry, i use all i have every day and use 2 containers to make it in. this means there is always lots of very tiny bbs for the smallest fry.

have fun, rick

 

[Astrid]

Hi Rick

... with the parms you have, there will be at least 25% hatch rate, maybe up to 50% which may be quite enough for you?

yes, for the beginning I would be happy if there is at least one small fish which will survive to adult size so also 25 % hatch rate is enough for me now.
Anyway, how many fish does it mean? When they spawned for the first tiem, I counted app. 100 eggs. How many eggs do they usually have?

when you change water, there is not much need to be invasive. i use a long 3/8" (9 mm) tube tied to a stick to get into the corners, then syphon the water back in so as not to turn everything upside down and also not to disturb them too much. fish get used to you doing light work, if you are in there every day- even if they have fry.

Thanks for your advice. But I dont think I disturbed them too much. I was really careful when I had hands in the tank. The only thing that should in my opinion cause it, was the new water. It was not fresh water from the tap, of course, but anyway...

When should I change water for the next time? I think it depends on the females' behaviour. But I wont do it today as I used to do every Friday.

your little group in the 17 gal will produce fry on a cycle if they didn't make it the last time. soon enough you will have 2 small groups, and your next problem will be when to remove the fry. have you got another tank ready?

I was planning to leave the fry in the tank until there will be any problems ( I read somewhere here that by the time the old female and male start to attack the maturing fry as congruence). I think that this thought is too far for me now, but in that case I would remove the old females and the male to the community tank or remove the fry to my quarantene tank (35 litres = 10 gal) and when they are big enough, to the community tank...

there is nothing wrong with shooting a little bbs around each or the caves for the females. this is good food for them, and will soon get eaten by the babies when they are old enough to take it.

Thats funny but I have actually did it. Ive made some new bbs, but no fry was there. Although I put it to the tank and it also reached both cave and coconut shell. The female which was guarding the cave ate it very well.

this will also get you into the cycle of producing bbs, which imo is a necessity to get decent spawn sizes growing out. when i am raising fry, i use all i have every day and use 2 containers to make it in. this means there is always lots of very tiny bbs for the smallest fry.

Thanks for advice. I have some bbs, but only in one container. I didnt find it necessary to have two of them since there is no fry yet. But Im going to prepare the second one now, so then they will have some fresh bbs.

 

[aspen]

>>'When they spawned for the first time, I counted app. 100 eggs.'

that is a good spawn, but your male will get better at his job. then it will depend on water parms, how many actually hatch.

>>'But Im going to prepare the second one now, so then they will have some fresh bbs'

one bottle will suffice for adults. 2 bottles is crucial imo, to ensure the babies get fed 3 x per day every day. otherwise you are waiting for bbs to hatch. you will get used to how many eggs to use, that you use them all up and not be over-feeding. i like to feed babies the smallest (newest) bbs i can, they are sooo tiny. with 2 bottles you can lways have bbs that have hatched out in the last 24 hours.

it is possible to continue a community of cacs, even without feeding the small ones. i got some cacs from a poster here, and he had a bunch of females (no male babies???) and an old male that he had had for a long time, maybe 3 years. he was mating with about 5 or 6 of his own babies at once i believe in a tightly planted 25 gal tank.

rick

 

[Dan724]

very informative thread. THANKS

 

[Astrid]

Food for fry

I know that live food is the best for young fish.
But what do you think about some powdered food for fry, for example Sera Micron? I dont know how it is with this german company in the US or elsewhere, but it is considered here to be the brand with high quality products.

Ive used Sera Micron together with bbs in raising fry of Brachydanio rerio (dont know the english name). Some description of it is here

I can also write what it exactly consists of, if you are interested...

But more important is, that I was sure that I read somewhere that this powder is useful also when the fry dont eat it, because it has secondary effect. It should support creating of some kind of mild algae on glass (which can be easily wiped with a finger) which should be good food for fry. Unfortunately, I dont remember where I read this, it is not on the packet as I thought before. But it is true that I had some green sheet on the glass in the tank where I used it.

 

[farm41]

The thing with live food and newly hatched fry is, that the movement stimulates the fry into feeding, whereas the powered food may just fall to the bottom and stay there, uneaten.

 

[Astrid]

Fry!!!


Ive found some small fish in front of the cave this morning...
Ive shouted my discovery to the whole flat and soon all of us were admiring that little creatures...

The female is looking after them and is attacking all the fish that go too close to her babies. And they seem to feel safe when she is nearby. The interesting thing is, that the female has her primary coloration again. She doesnt look longer the same as the second female which is guarding eggs.

Unfortunately, I dont have any fresh bbs now. Its because I wasnt sure if there will be any fry and how long it takes them to hatch. The bbs will be ready soonest on tomorrow morning.
---------

It was difficult to take some nice photos of the fry...

Arent they cute?

 

[farm41]

Fry!!!

Arent they cute?

Yes they are, congrats on the fry

They will be ready for the bbs by the time you get some ready.

I make a new batch of bbs every other day, whether I have newly hatched fry or not, all the apistos, nannacara, laetacara, and angels eat them.

 

[Astrid]

Fry!!!

Yes they are, congrats on the fry

Thanks Matt.

They will be ready for the bbs by the time you get some ready.

Do you mean that they are not ready for it now? It would be good if it is true but I am afraid that they are looking for food also now. I could see one small fish how it put something small in its mouth and then put it away. It may have noticed that it is not food, I dont know.
So I gave them a little of the powder Sera Micron and I think I saw as they were eating it.
But when it reached the fry, also other fish in the tank noticed that it is something good to eat. The other fish in the tank are 5 small (1 cm long) fish of Xiphophorus helleri (dont know its name in english). These fish are what remained from the last occupants of the tank. I knew that if i put them in the community tank, they would be eaten. So I left them there and they are threat for the fry now. The female is able to protect the fry from them, but only when there is only one of them. That time she started to fight with the second female which was protecting the coconut shell and those small xiphophorus came too close to the fry, one even tried to eat them. Then the female came and everything was OK again. But now I am a little hesitating if she is really able to protect them...

I know, I should remove the young Xiphophorus earlier... It is not good to try to do it now, is it?

The male doesnt do anything. He is keeping distance from the female which is looking after fry and doesnt help her in that. He is only sometimes trying to spawn with the second female which is protecting the eggs in the coconut. But she is fighting him off too.

As I read somewhere here, my female also sometimes puts one fry to her mouth and then put it away. The fry is then swimming again = is alive

 

[farm41]

Fry!!!

Do you mean that they are not ready for it now?

Sure they are, but you don't have any ready.

I know, I should remove the young Xiphophorus earlier... It is not good to try to do it now, is it?

Now is a good time, if you want the apisto fry to survive.

As I read somewhere here, my female also sometimes puts one fry to her mouth and then put it away. The fry is then swimming again = is alive

When one gets away, this is the way she brings it back.

 

[Astrid]

Fry!!!

I know, I should remove the young Xiphophorus earlier... It is not good to try to do it now, is it?

Now is a good time, if you want the apisto fry to survive.

I meant that manipulation with a net in the tank can disturb the female and fry. :? :?:

 

[farm41]

not as bad as them eating the fry, just take it easy

 

[Randall]

Apistogramma cacatuoides Fry

Dear Astrid,

Congratulations on your spawning success!

I agree with Matt; those Xiphophorus helleri should be removed as soon as possible, if the fry are to survive.

Thank you for sharing your photos with us.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Astrid]

not as bad as them eating the fry, just take it easy

Thats new for me and I am not always sure yet, what is the best for them. Thanks for your help.

Congratulations on your spawning success!

Thank you. I was really happy when I saw that small fish this morning...

I agree with Matt; those Xiphophorus helleri should be removed as soon as possible, if the fry are to survive.

Im going to do it right now. But by the time I saw that the second female was out of the coconut and swimming around, when the male entered the coconut and I think he ate the eggs, because he was chewing when leaving it I think that the female saw him doing it but didnt do anything. Dont know why...

The other female is still protecting the fry...

Thank you for sharing your photos with us.

I always like to public nice photos taken by myself. But these were taken only quickly and really are not ones of my masterpecies...

 

[aspen]

i believe that it is important to have mild fry predators in a tank with new parents, it helps them develop good defense instincts. (others disagree, we all learn from our own exp's) i have had a couple of cases with rams where one parent was killed by the other or jumped from agression when i removed all of the fry predators. learning to walk the line on how much fry danger is too much is part of learning about your own fish. i have used a single oto for this purpose though. fish don't seem to realise that oto's don't predate fry.

Xiphophorus helleri = wild green swordtail, red swordtail or red tuxedo swordtail, depending on the morph.

i believe that having 5 is too many. they swim on the surface at feeding time. catch them at feeding time. even if i returned the swordtails to the store, i would be much happier having more cac babies than those fish. if you have a fish that makes the cacs defend their fry, yet is no threat you would do better. any small suckermouth catfish might do the trick and do double duty as an algae eater. don't forget quarentine.

your fry won't die before tomorrow from starvation. they are eating mircoscopic things in the tank, sifting through fish poop etc, even parents slime is food for many cichlids, not just discus. even red devils feed their fry slime.

rick