your opinion : viejita or macmasteri

[Tony_R]

Hello,

i'll first have to say that "Rolo" has already seen these pictures, if that helps,
but i'd still like to have a second opinion :

viejita or macmasteri ????

i have to say, the fish are all from the same nest, the photo's are from two different tanks.

i thank you now for your opinions, in advance

Tony Riches

(Lehre, Germany)

 

[wwildcats04]

Im going to go with Macmasteri but its so hard because they are so similar.

 

[Apistt_ed]

because of the red shoulders, it's macmasteri. Viejita will not have that and the shapes in the caudal fin are more to that of mac. john

 

[Roach]

To the unexperienced eye (mine) I'd say that it's a viejita. I saw a few that were almost identical to this labelled as viejita

 

[Apistt_ed]

many times they are labeled as viejita, but as Mike has said before, the true viejita (holotype) isn't too plentiful in the hobby. I've never seen it. The interbreeding of multiple species has come up with the fish we know in the hobby as viejita II, but from the type material, the red shoulders is a dead give-a-way of macmasteri and not viejita.

 

[Roach]

I think you're right. Just did a bit of a look around and noticed a bit of a difference

 

[Mike Wise]

I agree. They are Red-shoulder/Rotrucken A. macmasteri.

 

[Riley]

Hey,

I would agree with the macmasteri opinion. Thats how mine looked right when i got them. Give them a chance to settle in, get em fattened up and they will definately look like macmasteri. I got mine at like 1.5 inches now the male is almost 3 inches, and still growing. Good luck with them, great fish!

 

[mooman]

Do I remember something about the appearance of the lateral stripe being more of a "zig zag" in vejita, or this incorrect?

 

[Mike Wise]

A. macmasteri is deeper bodied, has a slightly higher & narrower caudal spot, no red on the edge of the hard dorsal spines, often develops a squared off or slightly double tipped caudal fin, & may or may not have red marks on the gill covers. A. viejita is less deep bodied, has a slightly lower & broader caudal spot, red on the tips of the hard spines, develops only a round caudal fin, & has no red on the gill covers. I am discussing specimens like those from the wild here. The DATZ special publication is a good place to compare the two species (p. 60). The more colorful domestic forms of both species are more than likely the result of crossing several different closely related species.

 

[apistodave]

There ya go splittin again Mike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[apistodave]

looks like mcvieta to me

 

[Mike Wise]

Michael Miller's DNA studies show that A. macmasteri, A. viejita, A. sp. Schwarzkehl/Rotflecken(Black-throat/Red-flecked/"Viejita CF III/"Viejita CF II) are separate species. They are, however, closely related & have been mixed to produce the domestic forms of "macmasteri" & "viejita" presently in the hobby.

 

[wwildcats04]

I have a pair of macmasteri and the male is always hiding, is this typical behavior for this species because my male cac never hides so Im a little confused

 

[Mike Wise]

I have always found A. macmasteri to be very out-going. If he is always hiding, it indicates that something is not to his liking or he is ill.

 

[lab]

Michael Miller's DNA studies show that A. macmasteri, A. viejita, A. sp. Schwarzkehl/Rotflecken(Black-throat/Red-flecked/"Viejita CF III/"Viejita CF II) are separate species. They are, however, closely related & have been mixed to produce the domestic forms of "macmasteri" & "viejita" presently in the hobby.

Do the DNA studies only show the separation of the species or does it also apply to the mixing of these to produce the domestic forms?

I didn't quite understand if the comment on the domestic forms is based "only" on morphological characters.

I'm very interested in this since I'm considering writing an article for the Danish magazine "Cichliden" (=The Cichlid) on this particular subject.

Best regards,
Lars

 

[Mike Wise]

Miller's preliminary DNA studies are based on only wild-caught fish with known collecting localities. Therefore there are no domestic or mixed forms in his studies.

 

[lab]

OK, thank you!

By the way I'm the proud owner of the danish version of mcvieta :biggrin: :

 

[rafael]

Hi.

This apisto has been sold as Apistogramma viejita II. It is correct?

Thanks & greetings.

Rafael.

 

[Mike Wise]

Raphael,

Your fish appears to have more features of A. macmasteri than A. viejita.
I would call it a domestic A. macmasteri. It definitely is not the wild A. viejita! I imagine that it really is a domestic form that was created by mixing several macmasteri-complex species together.