wanting to learn how to properly I.D. apistogramma

[ErtyJr]

Hey all, seeing all the knowledgeable people here able to I.d. fish on a whim I have begun to really want to be able to do this as well.

Is there a certain book I should pick up? Is there some Internet location I should scour? What do I buy or where do I go?

I also would like to find lots of info in general not just for identifying species.

If it is a book is there an online site I can purchase it from? This started because I saw this book for $40 and was about to click buy it then decided to ask. Here is the link
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/39317...200_QL40&qid=1407094350&sr=1-2#ref=mp_s_a_1_2


Edit- I decided to purchase this book as a start as it was a bit cheaper, but still want a expert opinion on what books to buy and where I can search on the internet.

The book I bought-
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/39360...48c9a4859211b&pi=SL500_SY115#ref=pd_aw_sims_1

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I haven't got the Bork Aqualog book, but there is some question over some of the ID's. I have Mayland & Bork and it is an interesting book and worth a read but published some time ago.

Realistically none of the books is particularly useful for ID, as they were all published a while ago. The best book is probably "Stawikowski, Kosloswki & Volker "South American Dwarf Cichlids. New: A-Numbers, Habitat, Care and Reproduction" DATZ". Details here <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/i...bitat-care-and-reproduction.14817/#post-78071>" (and as an added enhancement to buy it contains a picture of Mike Wise).

Your best options on the web are: this forum, Tom C's web site: <http://apisto.sites.no/slekt.aspx?gruppeID=1&ViewSelected=True> with Mike's article about Apistogramma groups <http://apisto.sites.no/page.aspx?PageId=118> a must read.

cheers Darrel

 

[ErtyJr]

Thanks darrel! Looking into all this info immediately!

There is one more thing I have been wondering about. Me and my girlfriend travel a lot. When we get a larger place the girlfriend already knows I will be building a large breeding room that I intend to start off with apistogramma since it has become my favorite fish. I have seen many people talk about traveling to south America to collect apistos and I nearly have the gf sold on the idea. How to I begin to plan such an enormous task?

 

[ErtyJr]

Thanks again darrel, ordered the DATZ book you recommended. Can't wait for it to arrive!

Soon I will have a little image of Mike Wise to set my coffee on!

 

[gerald]

Start with reading Mike Wise's articles (on Tom C + Martin website) on the Apisto group IDs and geographic distributions of the groups. Understanding what distinguishes the various species groups will give you a sense of what characteristics are most useful for ID, so when you're looking at unidentified (or wrongly-identified) Apistos in a shop (or in the wild!) you can focus in on the relevant features.

 

[Mike Wise]

Thanks again darrel, ordered the DATZ book you recommended. Can't wait for it to arrive!

Soon I will have a little image of Mike Wise to set my coffee on!

I like this book - not just because I helped put it together - but because it is the best single source that shows all of the apisto forms/species (up to 2005) that were known. In addition, the species are grouped by species-group/complex, so all similar looking species are together and easy to compare without going from one part of a book to another as in books listing species in alphabetical order. By using the 'divide and conquer' method you are more likely to ID a species. By 'divide and conquer' I mean that you look for specific traits of a species-group/complex and eliminate species in other species-groups/complexes. It's much easier comparing a few similar species than the 350+ known forms/species of apistos we now know exist. The downside of this book is that it is primarily a picture book. For more detailed information on each species: biotope, keeping and breeding requirements, etc. my favorite is still "Die Buntbarsche Amerikas 2: Apistogramma & Co." by Ingo Koslowski.

BTW, I'm not really as green as in the photo. A certain well-respected German friend, who will remain nameless, has commented on my 'sickliness' on at least a couple of occasions. Hmm. Maybe a little brown coffee stain on it will make me look less ill.

 

[ErtyJr]

Thank you gerald and mike both for your responses. Gerald very helpful and advice, and I'm hoping one day I can be identifying them in the wild!

Mike, the second book you mentioned, is that in english and German as well? I, no matter how long I may stare at it, can not read german. And you have any ideas on the second question I had...

There is one more thing I have been wondering about. Me and my girlfriend travel a lot. When we get a larger place the girlfriend already knows I will be building a large breeding room that I intend to start off with apistogramma since it has become my favorite fish. I have seen many people talk about traveling to south America to collect apistos and I nearly have the gf sold on the idea. How to I begin to plan such an enormous task?

 

[Mike Wise]

Koslowski's book is published only in German but I can supply an English translation to those who own the book. As for collecting trips, Filipe Cantera provides fish collecting trips to Uruguay and Brian Perkins does the same to southeastern Peru (Puerto Maldonado area) and northern Bolivia. Both help with exporting fish collected. TomC has been taking 4-week long collecting trips to Peru on his own nearly every year since 2005. I've joined him on a couple of occasions and plan to do so again. The advantage of 'doing it yourself' is that you decide where to go and what to collect. The disadvantage is that you have to do all of the logistics, both in-country and export of collected fish. These trips tend to be 'less civilized' (ever baled out a tent at 3 a.m. with a herd of water buffalo around?) than canned tours.

 

[ErtyJr]

Man mike, something like that sounds so exciting, and unbelievably rewarding. Yea the part I was most concerned with was the exporting of the fish. I imagine you need some sort of permitting to get this done and just thinking about the logistics alone is mind boggling. I have talked to the gf about this. Actually after our last scuba trip in dominican republic I almost had her convinced that we needed to move there and I was going to set up a collecting business bringing people in to dive the reefs and collect their own fish. Lol, what a life that would be! I am very interested in this and I really hope this comes to fruitation for me one day.

Also just curious, what apistos do you keep for yourself mike?

 

[Mike Wise]

Also just curious, what apistos do you keep for yourself mike?

Not many different species right now: A. bitaeniata (Tigre), A. cf. cacatuoides (Putumayo/Estrecho) A. cf. eunotus (Huanta), A. cf. eunotus (Shishi-ta), A. cf. luelingi (Cristal), A. sp. Abacaxis, and A. sp. Wangenflecken. I also have a couple of A. rubrolineata males (expect females to arrive soon), and single specimens of A. norberi (7 year old female), A. urteagai (male), and A. cf. agassizii (BBCS-Madeira Gold, 5 year old male). I also have breeding groups of some corys and characids.

 

[ErtyJr]

Wow! You have a lot of the ones I really would love to have! In particular the bitaeniata and the abacaxis. Lol. Now that promts another question, everything I have been told has led me to believe that an apistogramma will generally only live 3 years and that's if you take excellent care of them. How do you have a 5 and even a 7 year old mike?!? Is that only that particular species? Or is what I have heard a myth started by people who improperly care for their fish?

 

[Mike Wise]

For me, I think it's good karma and benign neglect. It isn't species dependent either. Most of my breeders are over 2, many 3 years old. By benign neglect, I mean housing fish in tanks with a low population density, low stress (from inside and outside), careful feeding, and not breeding my fish too much (if possible). For example, most of my breeding tanks are 20 long and house 2 or 3 apistos with 2-4 pencilfish. In a properly decorated tank there is a lot of room to hide. I feel most hobbyists over-feed their fish, too. My adults rarely get fed more than once each day and not much. The rest they get from the naturally growing 'Aufwuchts' found in a properly maintained (but not too clean) and mature tank. It takes experience to know how much to feed without over-feeding. I try to breed my fish 1 or 2 times each year. That's why I try to keep 2 or more breeding tanks for each species.

This also seems to work for the 'dumpster' cat that adopted us 21 years ago. I think he's too ornery to die!

 

[gerald]

I'd say 3 years is typical "normal" lifespan for Apistos and many other dwarfs in captivity. After that many of them succumb to internal infections or liver/kidney problems, but some individuals just seem to be stronger and outlive the rest. I've had some Apistos (macmasteri especially) that made it to 5 yrs, and kribensis to around 7 yrs. I had a Betta channoides that looked like she was on her deathbed at age 3 after the rest of her cohort had died off, and continued looking that way for more than a year, wobbling around and eating feebly.

 

[ErtyJr]

For me, I think it's good karma and benign neglect. It isn't species dependent either. Most of my breeders are over 2, many 3 years old. By benign neglect, I mean housing fish in tanks with a low population density, low stress (from inside and outside), careful feeding, and not breeding my fish too much (if possible). For example, most of my breeding tanks are 20 long and house 2 or 3 apistos with 2-4 pencilfish. In a properly decorated tank there is a lot of room to hide. I feel most hobbyists over-feed their fish, too. My adults rarely get fed more than once each day and not much. The rest they get from the naturally growing 'Aufwuchts' found in a properly maintained (but not too clean) and mature tank. It takes experience to know how much to feed without over-feeding. I try to breed my fish 1 or 2 times each year. That's why I try to keep 2 or more breeding tanks for each species.

This also seems to work for the 'dumpster' cat that adopted us 21 years ago. I think he's too ornery to die!

Thank you mike. I was very sad when I found out I would lose my fish after only 2-3 years. I now have a goal to aspire to and try my best to keep my fish alive much longer. I'm sure it will take a serious effort but it's worth it.

And thank you as well gerald for sharing your experiences. Now I just have to work on lowering my feeding amounts. I get so worried my female doesn't eat enough and end up overfeeding my piggy male.

 

[gerald]

Keeping them cooler like 70 - 76 F (when not breeding) will also prolong their lives.

 

[ErtyJr]

Keeping them cooler like 70 - 76 F (when not breeding) will also prolong their lives.

Oh wow thank you! Did not know that I figured by keeping it 80 I was doing them a favor. Thanks gerald!

 

[Mike Wise]

Lower temps will extend their lives, but broods raised at these temps will probably be 80%+ females.

 

[gerald]

Disclaimer: That might not apply to ALL Apistos. There might be some species that really do need high 70s-low80s all the time. Would sure be nice to know the annual range of stream temperatures in each local region or river, not just the temp when some fish collector happened to be there.

 

[ErtyJr]

Lower temps will extend their lives, but broods raised at these temps will probably be 80%+ females.

Yes thanks Mike I am aware the temp does effect broods. Been keeping mine at 79-80. Just figured they would always want it like that.

 

[Mike Wise]

Temperature varies widely in apisto biotopes, depending on season, time of day, etc. Still, apistos can pick a preferred temp by moving up and down in the water. Temperatures vary by several degrees in just a short depth difference in most places.