Species recommendations

[blucenere]

Hello!
After many years I finally have a tank for an Apistogramma!!! (I am still deciding for a single, pair or trio).
The tank is 100cm x 40cm x 40cm, 160l (42gallons, 39" x 16" x 16" roughly).
My tap water has pH 7 and GH 15.
But I have another requirement for which I really need to hear your experiences.
I have too many endlers from my breeding project and I would like an Apisto that would help with the culling.
At least a good hunter of fry, even better if it could put some selective pressure on the adults too.
My research seems to point to Apistogramma cacatuoides, but it is not my favorite...
Of this list, in order of my personal preference, do you see valid candidates?
And what would you suggest, single, pair or trio?
And is A.cacatuoides the biggest?

1. Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis (I used to read that they are more aggressive than Apistogramma, but the online sellers in Germany suggest to have them in a group. I am confused) (it's my absolute favorite but I understand that size-wise is not the best candidate)
2. Apistogramma baenshi
3. Apistogramma macmasteri
4. Apistogramma agassizi
5. Apistogramma borellii
6. Apistogramma cacatuoides

 

[anewbie]

I find pucallpaensis pair forming with the male willing to have other females - they are generally less aggressive than other species though not sure they are less than borelli

baenshi are pair forming

The others are polgyamous but as to the number it depends on the size of the aquarium - put them in 100 and 3 or 4 females are fine - put them in a 20 long 1 female is what i suggest.

For 42 gallon you mentioned you could have a group of pucallpaenshi.

For a baenshi (probably the nicest of the ones mentioned imho) they are pair forming and will not tolerate others. The others you could have 3 females if you want. borelli is the least aggressive cacatuoides i find a bit random with some very passive and some hyper - my agassizi even as a single male was very territorial.

 

[MacZ]

(I am still deciding for a single, pair or trio).

My tap water has pH 7 and GH 15.

The water says single male. Let me explain: In your water only A. borellii might successfully breed and the others will likely spawn over and over again until the female burns out and the male may chase her to death. Also dwarf cichlids are softwater species. Yes, they might be kept in harder water, but it's a very common observation they will not do very well, tend to be sickly and have a shorter livespan. Wrong water parameters themselves are not a stressor, but the higher bacteria count is. It's like sitting on a bus with only sick people coughing. And stress (be it environmental or social) is the number one kiler of dwarf cichlids.

I have too many endlers from my breeding project and I would like an Apisto that would help with the culling.
At least a good hunter of fry, even better if it could put some selective pressure on the adults too.

Sorry to disappoint, dwarf cichlids are a really bad choice for this purpose. Using a "predator" to thin out the population of fast replicating species is usually not going to work. Either the predator species eradicates ALL fry from the other species, ignores them for the most part or will go for the adults too.

Geophagine dwarf cichlids are not fish-eaters, they might get one or two here and there. Their usual mode of feeding is sandsifting and while yes, they will opportunistically go for fry, my experience is they ignore them pretty quickly.

I known of no species that would work for endlers. All that I can thing of with enough appetite will at elast also eat adult male Endlers.

Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis (I used to read that they are more aggressive than Apistogramma, but the online sellers in Germany suggest to have them in a group. I am confused) (it's my absolute favorite but I understand that size-wise is not the best candidate)

ApistogrammOIDES, is a distinct, though closely related species. And what do you mean size-wise? They are really small in comparison. The aggression is... a mixed bag, but most had success keeping them in a group.

That said, here's your list sorted from small to big:

Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis
Apistogramma borellii
Apistogramma agassizi
Apistogramma baenshi
Apistogramma cacatuoides
Apistogramma macmasteri

A. macmasteri are the biggest by mass. A. cacatuoides might seem bigger due to their fins and big heads, but usually they are not that bulky. The first two will for sure not get the Endler fry.

About the paring behaviour or the lack thereoff @anewbie has said it all.

 

[anewbie]

Sorry to disappoint, dwarf cichlids are a really bad choice for this purpose. Using a "predator" to thin out the population of fast replicating species is usually not going to work. Either the predator species eradicates ALL fry from the other species, ignores them for the most part or will go for the adults too.

I missed the water but wanted to point out that many dwarf cichild make excellent predators - one of the best i ever had was nannacara amolae. He would hunt all day long relentless.

 

[MacZ]

I missed the water but wanted to point out that many dwarf cichild make excellent predators - one of the best i ever had was nannacara amolae. He would hunt all day long relentless.

I always forget the Cichlasomatini, but question is how far the OP wants the Endlers to be reduced. I'm more of the opinion and experience they are likely to eradicate the fry completely.

 

[anewbie]

I always forget the Cichlasomatini, but question is how far the OP wants the Endlers to be reduced. I'm more of the opinion and experience they are likely to eradicate the fry completely.

Well one thing that would help in a big way is reducing the water hardness to something more acceptable for the apisto - bringing the ec down to 40 or so should put a real damper on those endlers.

 

[MacZ]

I'm not a livebearer-expert but I count them as the antithesis to softwater.

 

[blucenere]

O_O thanks a lot for your replies!
Yes I know the water is on the harder side, and in principle softing is the right approach for many apistos, but my life is messy and having to re-calibrate the tap water...I just won't be able to.
I was looking for a species that would do reasonably well in it. (I read that non-wild A.cacatuoides fair well in moderately hard water.)
Reproduction in itself is not a priority. I mean, one of the best features of dwarf cichlids is their social behavior, but i am not planning on having an Apistogramma breeding business.
About the culling, I don't want the offsprings of the endlers in that tank.
My endler breeding project runs on others tanks and in this tank, I would put individuals that I don't want to breed.
I am not sure if I want a fish that would eat adult males or not

@anewbie you are making me dream with the info on A.pucallpaensis!

PS edit: if you think that Nannacara or Laetacara or some other South American dwarf is a better fit, I am happy to reconsider my position

 

[anewbie]

O_O thanks a lot for your replies!
Yes I know the water is on the harder side, and in principle softing is the right approach for many apistos, but my life is messy and having to re-calibrate the tap water...I just won't be able to.
I was looking for a species that would do reasonably well in it. (I read that non-wild A.cacatuoides fair well in moderately hard water.)
Reproduction in itself is not a priority. I mean, one of the best features of dwarf cichlids is their social behavior, but i am not planning on having an Apistogramma breeding business.
About the culling, I don't want the offsprings of the endlers in that tank.
My endler breeding project runs on others tanks and in this tank, I would put individuals that I don't want to breed.
I am not sure if I want a fish that would eat adult males or not

@anewbie you are making me dream with the info on A.pucallpaensis!

PS edit: if you think that Nannacara or Laetacara or some other South American dwarf is a better fit, I am happy to reconsider my position

As i said i completely missed the water parameters. the two species that might do ok in harder water are pucallpaensis and borelli but gh 15 isn't harder water - that is close to liquid rock and quite frankly i would not put any softwater fish in water that hard.

My tap water is harder water with gh 6 and kh 3 (tds 140); and both borelli and pucallpaensis can breed in that water.

What will happen if you put the species in your water is it might live for a year or two or might bloat up and die assuming they are domestics and not wc.

What occurred to me is you might be able to keep a central american dwarf cichild like rainbow fish or a lake malwai cichild of some sort and these will be enjoy the harder water and be more prone to chase endlers.

 

[MacZ]

What occurred to me is you might be able to keep a central american dwarf cichild like rainbow fish or a lake malwai cichild of some sort and these will be enjoy the harder water and be more prone to chase endlers.

I would also rather go with a central american like Amatitlania, if they weren't breeding like rabbits, too. Or indeed something East African e.g. from Lake Tanganjica, where there are more readily available fish eaters like Altolamprologus sp..

 

[anewbie]

There you have it - find a convict and do your duty freeing it in your tank.

 

[MacZ]

There you have it - find a convict and do your duty freeing it in your tank.

Riiight, a single Amatitlania in a separate tank, maybe some Hyphessobrycon columbianus and you're ready to go for Endler culling.

 

[blucenere]

Ok....but I don't want to nuke the plants too....I am for planted tanks.

 

[anewbie]

Well if the convict miss-behaves you can send him back to jail and try a rainbow cichild ( Herotilapia multispinosa); you aren't changing water chemistry for these fishes just picking one that prefer the chemistry you have. The advantage of the convict is that it is a smaller fish. There are other options such as the t-bar cichild (A. sajica):

Here is an article on a few of them; i'd try to stay under 4 inches if possible. The aquarium can support a larger fish but smaller is better which is why the convict is a really good option...

12 Types of Dwarf Cichlids from Central America | TFH Magazine

Central America offers a treasure trove of incredible aquarium fish! Check out these captivating types of dwarf cichlids.

www.tfhmagazine.com

 

[Mike Wise]

I personally have never seen an apisto that would prey on top-dwelling fish. Bottom dwellers? Yes, but this follows one of my observations: if a fish can fit another in its mouth - it will.

 

[blucenere]

Well if the convict miss-behaves you can send him back to jail and try a rainbow cichild ( Herotilapia multispinosa); you aren't changing water chemistry for these fishes just picking one that prefer the chemistry you have. The advantage of the convict is that it is a smaller fish. There are other options such as the t-bar cichild (A. sajica):

Here is an article on a few of them; i'd try to stay under 4 inches if possible. The aquarium can support a larger fish but smaller is better which is why the convict is a really good option...

12 Types of Dwarf Cichlids from Central America | TFH Magazine

Central America offers a treasure trove of incredible aquarium fish! Check out these captivating types of dwarf cichlids.

www.tfhmagazine.com

Thanks a lot, you opened a new world for me.
I wasn't aware of dwarf central American cichlids.
I am just concerned about their relationship with plants, some, like Herotilapia multispinosa, seem to be vegetarian (at least in some posts )
Another possibility at this point could be Neolamprologus, I love the N.brichardi/pulcher (and there seems to be a smaller one N.marunguensis)...but again not exactly plant-friendly

 

[blucenere]

I personally have never seen an apisto that would prey on top-dwelling fish. Bottom dwellers? Yes, but this follows one of my observations: if a fish can fit another in its mouth - it will.

By my experience breeding them, endlers are fundamentally chicken.
They will forage everywhere in the tank.
And when born, the fry fall to the bottom.
Additionally, the tank will house the culls, for example fish with deformed spines, or the ones born with buoyancy issues, and their relative that should not reproduce anymore. (The first 2 are usually identified early in their lifetime)

But going back to the main topic, you really don't think that at least A.cacatuoides would fare well in my water?
It is a big disappointment that after being able to finally get a tank big enough, I still can't have apistos. But I will follow your advice

 

[Bach]

By my experience breeding them, endlers are fundamentally chicken.
They will forage everywhere in the tank.
And when born, the fry fall to the bottom.
Additionally, the tank will house the culls, for example fish with deformed spines, or the ones born with buoyancy issues, and their relative that should not reproduce anymore. (The first 2 are usually identified early in their lifetime)

But going back to the main topic, you really don't think that at least A.cacatuoides would fare well in my water?
It is a big disappointment that after being able to finally get a tank big enough, I still can't have apistos. But I will follow your advice

I invested in a RODI system so I could raise various species of Apistogramma. When I used my tap water with a GH around 225 ppm my cockatoo didn’t live more than one year.

 

[blucenere]

I invested in a RODI system so I could raise various species of Apistogramma. When I used my tap water with a GH around 225 ppm my cockatoo didn’t live more than one year.

Damn....thank you

 

[anewbie]

Damn....thank you

Instead of focusing on apistogramma i would view as i know have an aquarium big enough for dwarf cichild. Really some of the central american dwarf cichild are very nice just beware that some love plants.