"Plane Tree" Leaves

[steph]

Hi

Im trying to find out if I can use Plane Tree leaves safely in a tank? Species name is Platanus x hybrida. Its quite a common tree near me and drops lots of nice large brown leaves in Autumn.

I know most people suggest Oak or Beech but they arent that common in Sydney

If I soak the leaves, how can I test if its toxic or not - I dont really want to experiment on the fish!

Any other tree suggestions would be good? I know eucalyptus is too oily for the tank.

Many thanks

Steph

 

[MadHatter]

Hi Steph, I've been using Loquat (Eriobotrya japonica) leaves for months now in my 6ft biotope with no ill effects. There are plenty of these trees around where I live in Melbourne, and their lovely tough broad leaves give the tank an authenthic 'rainforesty' look.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I've used Eriobotrya (Loquat) leaves and also Camellia, both successfully.
We have plenty of Plane trees (Platanus x hybrida) too, but I've never given them a go. The leaves are certainly fairly tough and rot resistant. One of the advantages of Camellia, Alder cones (Alnus), Oak leaves (Quercus) and Indian Almond (Terminalia) is that they reduce the pH of the tank water.
Neither Loquat or Beech (Fagus) leaves showed any acidifying effect when I tried leaching the leaves and testing the leachate in the lab., but that may be because the trees are growing on very calcareous soils (here in Bath).
Terminalis catappa grows in N. Australia, so you may be able to source leaves quite easily.

I can't see any reason why they shouldn't be safe (Eucalyptus, Horse Chestnut (Aesculus) and Walnut (Juglans) for example all contain potentially toxic compounds), but the only reference I could find was:

Malicky (1990) Hydrobiologia
206:2 pp. 1573-5117
"Feeding tests with caddis larvae (Insecta: Trichoptera) and amphipods (Crustacea: Amphipoda) on Platanus orientalis (Platanaceae) and other leaf litter" said "Feeding tests have shown that leaves of Platanus are not eaten by aquatic shredders" and "Platanus leaf litter evidently has little
nutritive value but is not acutely toxic".

So you may have to give them a go and find out what happens.

cheers Darrel

 

[steph]

Thanks for the comments Darrel, I found a reference that the Council considers them difficult because of the disposal of the leaf litter, and the fact that the leaves can take up to 15 months to break down, which makes me suspect that they are fairly inert in the tank, and should last a reasonably long time.

I am mainly interested in the leaves to help create a more complex environment for breeding fish rather than their acidifying properties. I use a lot of rain water for my tanks when I can, (Sydney has had 240mm of rain for Feb already.. ) so my water is very soft and fairly low pH without me having to do much to it at all.

I have been soaking some older leaves to see what it does to the water, but will wait until autumn to collect some fresh 'dead' leaves for the tanks.

Still interested if any one has some actual experience with testing leaves or using plane tree leaves.

Cheers

Steph

 

[MadHatter]

Now I understand why I'm not getting as low pH values as expected. Thanks Darrel! I may try supplementing with Camellia and Terminalia leaves.
Can anyone suggest a good (preferably Australian) supplier for the Terminalia leaves?

Incidentally, I assume the leaves of the Indian Rubber Tree Ficus elastica are to be avoided. Can anyone confirm/deny?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I definitely wouldn't use any Ficus, the sap (latex) is definitely poisonous to aquatic organisms. Very old dry leaves may be all right, but I still wouldn't risk it. A lot of tropical forest trees are figs (often "Strangler figs"), so the native Apistogramma leaf litter probably does contain a lot of persistent fig leaves.

There is a very old thread on "the Krib", <http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/tank-leaves-plants.html> Mike W. contributed, I've abstracted a couple of bits:

"I have used Coccoloba uvifera leaves with great success. The common name
of this plant (tree) is the Sea Grape. The leaves are olive-green and
very stiff. When they have been soaked in water for a while, they turn a
rich brown colour and become water logged. Unfortunately, this plant is
not common in homes as it is really a tree, however, it may be worth
cultivating a small one, if you have the space. I have access to this
plant at my work (Vancouver Aquarium) in the Amazon Gallery where we
have four of the trees. They regularly have leaves falling off. I have
had Satanoperca leucosticta and Microgeophagus ramirezi use them for
spawning. Now that I have some Apistogramma (from a recent trip to
Peru), I'll collect some again for them to use.

"Several years ago when living in the San Francisco area, Brian Wolinski
suggested magnolia leaves. They were working great for him, so I tried them
and was very pleased with the result. I'd suggest using the dried-up, old brown leaves that accumulate under the trees. They are sturdier than oak leaves and, I believe, last longer under water. They also have sort of a tropical look. They tend to curl a little bit and make lots of hidey holes and caves for the apistos. I must be getting old; I can't recall whether they sank immediately, or whether we boiled them first, but getting them to sink to the bottom did not present a problem."

The Magnolia was the deciduous M. campbellii type rather than the evergreen M. grandiflora.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

other Ficus sp.

Hi all,
On a slightly tangential angle to this, I used to have a plant of Ficus benjamina that had very extensive aerial roots that had found their way into the water tank in the glasshouse, where they spread enormously. The tank had Guppies and then Paradise Fish in it (the heating went down one christmas with predictable results) and the fish were fine. The other thing was that Ficus benghalensis (Banyan) has edible leaves, so presumably they don't contain much/any latex.
cheers Darrel

 

[steph]

Well the dog has been drinking the water the plane tree leaves have been soaking in, but thats not necessarily any indication of toxicity, as Ive seen him drink the slimy water from the pot plant saucers.

Great news on the magnolia trees, my neighbours have one that overhangs our side fence so leaf collection will be nice and easy come autumn.

cheers

Steph

 

[Apistomaster]

I tried fallen Cherry Tree leaves last fall for the first time. I think they had a generally favorable effect but they decayed rapidly in warm water and snails quickly reduced them to nothing. Not quite what I was hoping for but Oak trees are not common locally and I can't find the bag of tropical almond leaves, Cattapa?, a friend sent me.

 

[Rod]

I think you need to be careful....lots of Plain trees in Australia are eucalyptus

Could poison the water with lots of them???

"Swamp bloodwood" is an Australian tree that works if you can find some

It is better in my opinion to buy ketapang leaves off forums....seems plenty for sale these days

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Rod this is Platanus x hispanica (London Plane), so there isn't any problem with resins, oils etc.
cheers Darrel

 

[steph]

Plane tree leaves

Hi all

I while ago I asked about these leaves. I then used some in two of my tanks, and about 2 months after experienced 100% mortality of my fish

I cant say for certain that the leaves were the issue but its one of the few factors that was ONLY in these tanks and not in any of the other tanks. Fish symptoms started with rapid breathing, mouth open and fast gills, but NOT at the surface, followed by fins being extended bt not necessarily bloated/dropsy like, fish eventually became sluggish and stopped swimming. Time from first symptoms to death about 4 days. Fish deaths - 2 breeding pairs - occurred over a period of about a month.

One of the reasons I think the leaves might have played a factor is I have since read that they can have lots of very fine hairs (i didnt see any but who can tell) and its possible that over time these caused some type of gill dmg or infection? Or else they were just not suitable.


steph

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Steph sorry to hear that. I've still got them, and there is one in the shrimp tank, so far so good, but I'll keep an eye on mine. They've been in about 3 months and they still look almost exactly as they did when they went in, so it might be an issue as they start to break up. Following your experience I'll advise against using them. Your symptoms definitely seem to suggest a water quality issue.

I've used Loquat leaves for about a year now, and they definitely seem OK.
I've also got some Magnolia leaves (from M. spengeri) they have now decomposed down to absolutely beautiful leaf "skeletons", like relly fine lace.

cheers Darrel

 

[KevinA]

London Plane.

These are normally used in areas of high pollution as they really grow well in those conditions, I wonder if they were either contaminated by same or had absorbed same via their pores.

I use Beech ( Fagus sp. ) or Oak (Quercus sp.) and find these are good and don't lay flat giving rise to pockets which are explored and harbour juvi shrimp from time to time.

Kev.

 

[steph]

Thanks all, the thought of pollution crossed my mind as wel but I didnt know how to test for it. I really struggled to identify what was killing my fish because it didnt seem to fit all the classic symptoms, frequent water changes seemed to help at the time but I reckon by the time they were showing symptoms they were fairly far gone. I have since sourced some oak leaves and have some magnolia leaves. My neighbour has one that drops over the fence so I know they are pretty clean but havnet actually added them to the tanks.

after removing the plane tree leaves and some big water changes I have shrimp in one tank and endlers in the other and have had no problems now after a couple of months. The shrimp are breeding madly - so are the endlers.

steph