Male Aggie cave hiding.

[DannyG]

I have a pair of Apisto agassizii (double reds) for about a week and a half now. Seem happy. For awhile the male was quite conspicuous, out in front of the tank, even chasing the female. For the last couple of days he has moved into a cave and barely come out, once in the morning, and not eating much. The female is patroling the tank as normal. Is this something I should worry about? And if so what can I do?

Here is an update: I was worried because I had been feeding them alternating between frozen blood worms and brine shrimp, and have now seen in the forums that blood worms (which they devoured) should be avoided. Have just bought frozen mysis, daphnia to add to the diet; I will stop with the blood worms.

This morning the female is spending most of her time in the cave, and chasing away any cory's that stray near. I have seen no sign of the male. She is not in bright yellow color... do aggie females turn bright yellow when ready to breed?

 

[LindaMC]

I have a pair of aggie red tails and my female turns bright yellow when she is in breeding mode.

 

[Apistt_ed]

Hello Danny,

Some of the things that can lead apistos to hiding and loss of appetite are water conditions, stress, and as you've already heard, during the act of spawning. Chances are, since your male was active before and now has just stopped or is not as active and not eating as much it may be that your water conditions are stressing out the fish. With the understanding of bloodworms not being a good food, I'd like to say that bloodworms are ok to feed, in moderation as it is a fatty food that would make your fish overweight and it can sometimes be hard for your fish to pass. Don't fret too much if you've already exposed them to it, but as you already did, use it with caution and in moderation. A diet of many of the other frozen foods is fine. Anything from Cyclops-eez, mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, baby brine shrimp, daphnia will all be excellent food for your fish. If the female does not show the bright yellow colors that are characteristic of apistos then chances are she has not laid eggs yet. If she is occupying a certain cave and is defending it, then she is getting closer to spawning and you'll see the courting behaviors.
What are your water parameters/readings? If the male is still not eating and seems to be hiding all the time, then it may be stress caused by water conditions. You may want to quarantine the fish in a bare bottom tank, if possible, or if not an option then please test your water for nitrates, nitrites, ph, etc. It would be more than likely a possiblity that this is what's happening. john

 

[DannyG]

Update and more feeding questions.

Thanks, Linda and A-E for your responses. Here is an update and some parameters. First, to note that the male aggie would usually come out and display when I approached the tank, as the female kind of still does. This comes close to winning my wife over to my having them... almost... I think if they had fur she would be in love.

Having not seen the male for at least a day I figured he was (as in past tense), so I moved the flower pot cave to find him... nobody home. I then replaced the driftwood, and lo and behold he reappeared in the front of the tank, looking gorgeous, with no visible signs of any illness. He did at one point give a rock a quick sideways flick, but I examined him closely and he looked perfect. I ran for some frozen brine shrimp which he ate heartily, hanging out for awhile before dissappearing back into the thick plantings.

My tank parameters: 29 gallon, heavily planted, 110 watts PC 6700ºK 12 hours/day, CO2 dosed ~2bbs.controlled by timer and pH controller (to a CO2 level of ~25ppm).
68.1ºF
7.5ºdKH
12ºdGH
pH varies AM to PM 7.7 (or 7.8) to 6.9 (or 7.0)with pH controlled/CO2 dosing
NH3/NH4: 0
NH2: 0
NO3: ~0 (plants are probably using this faster than produced... may have to add some macronutrients)
Water change weekly: 30-45%, then dosing with Flourish or Flourish Iron.
Filtration: Fluval 203 canister w/ peat added, and Penguin Bio-wheel (for now, it is likey not needed).
Fish: Pair Aggies, 9 Rummy Nose Tetras, ~5 ottos, 2 SAE's, 4 Corydoras adolfoi (not wild caught), and ~7 Amano shrimp. Will possibly add 5 Corydora sterbai (still in their q-d adjustment tank) and some Cardinal Tetras.

Now a question about food, perhaps following up on the earlier thread. I will now eliminate Blood worms from the diet (too bad I have a lot of them, and they seemed to love them) because I am now wondering if that was a contributing factor to his dissappearing for the while.

I have the following: Hikari Brand Mysis, Hikari Brine Shrimp, Hikari Spirulina Brine Shrimp, SF Bay Brand Krill (not used yet), and Ocean Nutrition Special Formula VHP. This last seems very pasty, and the fish seem to have trouble eating it. It ends up sitting on the bottom of the tank.
My LFS seems not to have daphnia. So where can I get additional food (or is this enough variation? The Bug Farm purchase links seem dead. I live in rural Vermont, and it being spring time, we are about to have the wondrousness of enormous quantities of insect critters. Can I harvest any of these? How about earthworms that I find in the yard?

Perhaps this could be a new thread, how to find food for you apistos in the outdoors of the rural Northeast.

 

[fishgeek]

danny i assume the water temperature is a typo and you mean 86 , otherwsie turnit up a bit
rest looks ok
i personally dont have a problem with blood worm , each to there own, i have only been keeping fish 5 yr's and i mean red mosquito larva as that is what i find labelled as blood worm in england

i do feed worms both eart worms and white worms - the fish love them though i have read that they can cause fatty degenration in the liver?
not something i have yet subscribed too

the male maybe quite for illness reasons or the female may have been harrassing him and hence he has been hiding

as ed said water quality is very important to apsito and alos the rummies i notice you have
larger fish are more prone to low oxygen levels so maybe that has a bearing with your planted setup

what is his feaces and belly like
prehaps a smaller qt tank or isolation chamber floating in the main tank so you can observe these things

andrew

 

[DannyG]

Yes, 68ºF was a typo, I meant 78ºF. You really recommend 86ºF? Apistos like the water that warm? That seems discus territory to me. He is back out, eating heartily. The male and female were nuzzling each other lovingly now. And I have yet to see aggression towards him by any other fish. Belly looks good, no bloating, haven't checked feces. O2 level is likely quite high; I have plant O2 plant pearling during the day and plenty of surface agitation at night.
Here is a link to a couple of photos of them. Did not have time to get the macro lens on.

http://homepage.mac.com/dgottsegen/PhotoAlbum5.html

 

[fishgeek]

nice fish danny
male looks healthy enough if that is a recent photo
just keep observing and keep water good
and no i wouldn't keep mine at 86, i come from a normal country that use's normal weights and measure's :wink: 25-26 for me
i just assumed 86 had gone in backwards

 

[Fatts]

Normal???? I think we still call them English measurements here don't we?

Danny, I keep my tanks between 78 and 80 degrees.

 

[Roach]

I don't know how any American can consider their country "normal".:biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[Roach]

You guys do have easy access to an enormous range of Apisto's though so for that I am jealous

 

[MikeNYC]

isn't his PH swing quite large? 6.9 -7.9? Not sure what fish usually tolerate, but i am pretty sure that would stress the fish.

 

[Apistt_ed]

isn't his PH swing quite large? 6.9 -7.9? Not sure what fish usually tolerate, but i am pretty sure that would stress the fish.

I would also agree that if the ph swings that much, it would stress the fish out enough for them to lose their appetite. try to level it out. john

 

[fishgeek]

as an aside how many reading this actually know what there pH fluctuates through the day?

i know i have no idea because i only take spot measurements, and right now i think my pH electrode has gone duff, though thats another story

i saw the pH swing and wondered , in theory yes it is a problem, i didn't say anything because i have taken fish in a small qt tank from pH 4.5 to pH 7 in a matter of minutes with a water change... they showed no ill effects

nothing in nature is static , yes larger volumes of water will change more slowly though i bet when rain hits the amazon basin after a dry spell lots of acidic water runs into those waters pretty quick and alters pH within hours


andrew

 

[Fatts]

I agree with Andrew. I have found that PH is not nearly as important as TDS. The only time I found PH changes an issue was with breeding fish or fry / small juvies.

All that said though, I keep my "show tanks" at a constant PH 6.0-6.2 using a CO2 controller. The real reason I like to use the controller, is so that I don't get a CO2 dump into the tank.

 

[DannyG]

Guess I will chime back in here. Because the controlled output from my pH controller is plugged into a timer, and the solenoid and reactor plugged into it, CO2 only flows into the tank during the "lights on" part of the time cycle.

I am now believing, having reading the previous postings, that I should remove the timer. This would keep the pH at a pH monitor controlled 6.9 (or whatever setting I choose) continuously, allowing CO2 to flow to the reactor an night (and day) only when the pH rose. I was using the timer as well as sort of a belt and suspenders defense against a CO2 dump. However, I think it is really more trouble than it is worth. Besides after being off all night it is more difficult for the CO2 to get moving in the morning... back pressure in the line, I think. So I suppose I will remove the timer. It is interesting because in the planted tank forums, the greater concern is with a CO2 dump than a pH swing, but not as many apisto keepers there.

 

[Fatts]

Danny, that is definatly the way to go. If you have a controller and a solenoid let that take care of your PH for you. My PH only raises or falls out of my 6.0-6.2 range when I do water changes. As long as the fish are not gasping for O2 at the surface of the water, there is nothing to worry about. If you do see them gasping for O2 you can always add a small airstone at night.

 

[DannyG]

Definitely what I will do as this morning the problem was more extreme. I think that setting the bbs count can be tricky (one need only read planted tank forums to glean this) and once mine has been set it will hold steady, EXCEPT in the morning when it was turning back on, as I said before. I think back pressure in the CO2 tubing would sometimes profoundly reduce the bubble count, or in the extreme case this morning not allow the CO2 to begin flowing at all. As a result, with the lights on for an hour or a bit more, the plants used up the available CO2 and the pH climbed to 8. This is higher than my tap water fresh from the tap or standing. I have brought it back down slowly. With the controller working alone the back pressure issue should not arise.

Here is the good news : The male is out enjoying himself in the front of the tank again, eating heartily. The female came out of the cave, where she has now taken up residence, for a visit to eat this morning, and she is now bright yellow. This quite different than yesterday as one can see from the pictures I posted then.