community apisto help

[wolf13]

I recently saw some apisto's on aquabid and fell in love. I have a tank thats very understocked right now and winter is finally ending. I had thought to do a festivum or angel along with the existing cardinal and greenfire tetra's, but i think apisto's would be much more interesting. I have been doing a lot of reading on here the past couple of days and decided to just start asking. I'd really like to do a two species community (had started off thinking three, but relize I am probably pushing it with two). so, please advise on the route to go, and species best suited.

tank is 55g 36x18x20, so it has a nice footprint, but is not as long as a normal 55; which sounds like it could be an issue. It is well planted with dwarf swords, a large amazon and some ruffled swords. I have a few floating plants as well. Flurorite substrate, filtration is an eheim 2213 and a 2217 (with a large bag of peat in it) hooked to a co2 mixing chamber with fluval media in it. I also run an overnight airpump through the co2 chamber due to the plant load. Tank temp at one end is typically about 77 (moderate flow area), the other end is about 79 due to postioning of heaters (high flow area with the 2217 output) making for two fairly distinct zones. The water is pretty hard naturally with a higher pH. No chemical ads besides CO2 and peat to bring down the pH. RO is not an option at this point.

for bottom dwellers I already have three dwarf pleco's. All three seldom set fin on the actual floor of the tank. one usually inhabits the vertical driftwood I have in the center (and he's the one i'd be most concerned about, hes a somewhat bad tempered starlight bristlenose i've started to regret getting. such a cool pleco, but I seldom see him, and if any of the three will be trouble, its him), a clown pleco that moves all over the tank (but is usually behind one of the filter intakes or on the center piece) and the third has taken up residence next to the heater and the 2217's output in a corner of the tank so most of the actual bottom is unclaimed. I had thought of getting a group of cory's but will probably have to abandon that if i get more then one group of apistos. Viable fry is not a requirement, but I'd like to see courtship behavior and colors.

This is an old picture of the tank from just after I moved everything into the 55g from a 29g last year. It has changed from the picture, but it starts to give an idea, and I have started to do a real rescape on it with an eye toward breaking line of site. the center driftwood is going to stay (but is more centered), but the side driftwood is going to get rescaped with a better eye towards hiding spots.

There are four distinct areas based on LOS in the tank. left, right, front center (the large center driftwood) and rear center (a forest of sword plants with only a little driftwood).

based on this, I'd really like to do two species of apistos. I plan to introduce both pairs at the same time (trio?).

my top two canidates at the momment are a pair of Apistogramma agassizii and a pair of Apistogramma Panduro. Good, bad combo?

some other combos i've considered is replacing the agassizii with a Cacatuoides Triple Red Pair or Honglsoi pair (however, I read they don't do well in harder water). A Borelli pair or Viejita Pair could also be an option, but I'd really like the most diverse color options. Cacatuoides Triple Red and Cacatuoides gold together I'd also consider, but Cacatuoides in general seem to be more aggressive to start with from what i've read?

Suggestions? thoughts? don't even think about mixing two species in a 3 ft tank? alternative selections?

 

[bigbird]

Hello Wolf13,

Welcome to the forum. Nice set up for the tank filter etc. Water try to get softer down to 6.5 if you can. Try adding some oak leaves. May I give you some tips which I use.
1. Be careful with a lot of bottom dwellers, like pleco corys etc, as they compete with food and hiding spaces with the Apistos. I would suggest keep the plecos and do not add any corys. just my thoughts.
2. The 3 foot tank, should have plenty of natural territories, ie caves, claypots, rocks, drift wood , cocunut shells etc so each Apisto group can form a little boundary and hiding spots.
3. Plants ,soil and driftwood look perfect for apistos.
4. I also keep Agassizi and panduor in the same tank, try and keep the split 1M to 2-3 F. The colours are great and worth it.
5. Festivum is a more middle to lower swimming fish, angels are more middle to upper, so I would go for angels fish, this splits the regions for the fish.
6. As per your photo, the output of the water is on the right side , maybe position this on the short end of the tank, to give you a better current from left to right instead of back to front if you understand my meaning.

Otherwise perfect. You have the correct set up and good luck
cheers jan-kurt :biggrin:

PS keep us informed

 

[wolf13]

Thanks! I suppose I should mention, on the photo, that was back before I had the 2217 and had just moved the 2213 over. the 2217 output is now vertical and bouces off the short side. the 2213 is on the other side and is also run verticaly, but is more centered facing towards the short side as well, making for a more gentle flow. Even with all the extra's on the 2217's line, it still has a good bit of force. both intakes are more centered about 10 inches apart. All total, it now ends up with pretty good circulation, alot better then the pictured set up.

I've been reading on the oak leaves and will have to try that. Luckily, oaks are in good supply for me.

 

[bigbird]

that then look like an excellant set up and ready for the apistos.
Oak leaves keep the ph down and add acidity plus lots of places to hide.
Have fun and keep us updated.
cheers

 

[elpaninaro]

Hi Wolf13,

I wanted to reply since my tank has a similar footprint to yours- 65G breeder tank- and I have had a time getting things to where more than one Apisto species could live in harmony.

I offer this in the spirit that I have learned the hard way the various species are very different and each person will have a different experience.

Right now I finally have found harmony in my tank with 4 different mini-cichlid species- 1 male and 2 females each of A. macmastersi, A. bitaeniata, A. atahualpa and Dicrossus maculatus (the latter I recommend most highly since they are unbelievably beautiful.)

When I originally added a second species to my tank, I already had about 20 pounds of rootwood and I added more plants. Did not help. I now have almost 35 pounds of wood in there and that has helped a lot. I plan to add more soon just to be safe.

I specifically took care to ensure that all lines of sight the length of the tank were interrupted except at the top front, and I made sure to have wood with lots of small caves that the smaller females could enter without the larger males being able to have access.

Point being, I would suggest more wood if you want to mix species. Granted macmasteri is a particularly aggressive species which is the main reason I have gone so crazy with it in my tank- but I still think more would do you good.

I also keep one large Geophagus in there and he keeps the macmastersi male in check. Oddly enough he only gets slightly aggressive with that one male- he is very peaceful with all the other fish in the tank.

I have always had a school of cories (loxanus I think is the correct spelling of the species) and they have been fine. The Apistos ignore them except when a female is breeding and even then there are not any fights that result in fin damage.

Plecos have not worked out and I tried a couple of the dwarf species early on. But even those grow and get mean and I eventually had to remove them. The problem is they like to hide in the wood which will tend to be right where an Apisto female is setting up shop. Plus they do not really eat the stuff you want them to and they get addicted to bloodworms and fish food instead. So whatever benefit they are supposed to provide is not there (at least that is my experience.)

Farlowellas are a great addition to help with algae control. I have those and Otos in my tank with no issues- 2 Farlowellas and 3 Otos. I periodically add SAEs for a couple of months when filament algae get out of control and then I remove them when they get too big and aggressive. With these 3 species in place, I have little manual labor on the algae front- just a tank scraping with the magnet cleaners every few weeks, if that.

Also- I recommend 2-3 females to every male for the harem species, which seems to be most of them. I have twice had 1M and 1F and that resulted in more aggression. My LFS expert confirmed extra females help cut down on aggression between species.

Final note- just spend lots of time watching when you can. I have kept many fish before and I have found Apistos far easier to "read" than other fish. With some daily observation you will be able to spot trouble pretty fast I think. In terms of excess aggression, if nobody's fins are getting nipped danger sign #1 is when the oppressed species (usually the male first- and then later the females) are not coming out and competing for food.

I hope this helps and good luck with your tank.

 

[wolf13]

Thanks! Makes me glad I went and bought more driftwood last week. I have no idea how many pounds i have, but its substantially more then what can be seen in that picture. Do you have piles with networks, or spread it out more? I wiped out one stores supply of mopani wood, I am actually tempted to go check another today.

with the A. bitaeniata do you find them very shy? I read a number of reports saying they tend to be.

The dwarf pleco's were strictly for fun, I probably would stick to one were i doing it again, but they are really interesting fish (the ones that let you watch em that is).

 

[Apistomaster]

I consider A. bitaeniata a very shy species and one I would generally only keep with it's own. I would vote for A. agassizi instead. Still one of the slender body types but usually more outgoing and assertive. I have only kept wild A. bitaeniata and find them pretty enough but in a more subtle way than aggies.

I generally have my best Apistos in planted tank experiences when I only try one Apistogramma species with another SA Dwarf like Dicrossus filamentosus or for those lucky enough to be able to find them, Dicrossus maculatus is among the coolest of the cool SA Dwarfs.

Dwarf fancy plecos are as much or more diverse group than the Apistogramma which makes generalization a bad idea but a few things do tend to be true.
Your Starlight Ancistrus is a difficult species. It is a true black water fish which needs low pH and hardness almost too low to measure with color chemistry test kits. It is a bit of an algae eater. The majority are carnivores. Throw away all that you thought you knew about plecos. They invariably regard the available hidey holes as prime real estate. Their tastes tend to coincide with an Apistogramma's. Tastes; the little plecos highly regard Apistogramma eggs. If an Apisto and Dwarf fancy pleco like the same spot, then that spot will become pleco property.
I raise some of these pretty Plecos. Latest one for me is Peckotia sp L134, the Leopard Frog Pleco. Hint: Plecos tend to like long rectangular caves over notched inverted flower pots that most Apistos will use. Keep the opening no larger than absolutely necessary; this can help a brooding female Apistogramma exclude a snooping dwarf fancy Pleco.

 

[wolf13]

Well, I am now in the apisto club. I went ahead with the panduro's and agassizii's from Two Fish Guys. They actually sent a trio of Agassizzi's and some juvi's, and they so far are doing fine, and showing some color(the panduro's tails are really vibrant). Everyone seems pretty happy right now, the panduro's have been all over exploring. I actually snapped a shot of the tank last night. very poor quality picture, there seems to be a smear on the glass int he center and some of the swords are coming off a pruning and replanting. I might still make some adjustments (especially would like to do some branch work), but it gives a better idea. Oh, and I added a bunch of red oak leaves.