A precious species - ID

[tjudy]

I've got Charley's pictures also, and they are more colorful. THe adipose fin is pretty convincing, and I will admit that I did not look that closely at the blurry images to notice one way or the other. Nannostumus sp. have adipose fisn, but on some species they are very clear, very small and located very near the caudal fin and hard to see, especially in a blurry image. Those blurry pictures are hard to determine scale too. The fish in those picture strike me as being less than two inches long, but that is just an impression. They also seem to have smaller fins in relation to their body size than the N. crosomus does, and the overall body shape of the male does not look elongated enough (comparing to both my and Charley's pictures). Those observations can be explained away by camera angle and condition of the fish, but without better pictures we will never know.

I will ask Charley for permission to post his images. I have permission to use them for educational purposes, but I will double check.

 

[tjudy]

Here are Charley Grimes' images of N. crosomus:

http://webpages.charter.net/tedjudy/fish images/crosomus_19_shipper.jpg

 

[tjudy]

OK... I am going to make my case for this fish not being a Notropus species. I took the liberty of photoshopping the blurry image of the male in question, just to be able to get a better idea of the ratio between fin and body lengths, as well as the shape of the body and fins.

When comparing this fish to my and Charley's images, here are some things I notice.

1) The unknown tetra's fins are red, the N. crosomus fins are irridescent blue.

2) The eye of the unknown tetra is hard to see, but it is much closer to the fish's mouth than the N. crosomus.

3) The eye of the N. chrosomus has a yellow iris that completely encircles the pupil. THough it is hard to see the eye of the mystery fish, I thik that if the iris were that bright it would have shown up in the image. I think that the eye is black as an extension of the black lateral stripe, just like it is in some Nannostomus species (notably N. margianalis).

4) No adipose fin is also consistent with some Nannostomus species.

5) The sharpening effect that I used to try to get a better look at the fish would have highlighted pronounced scales, which it did not. I think this fish has very small scales compared to the shiner, which is why the mystery fish's color looks smoother.

6) The body shape, in comparison, is lonfer in N. crosomus than in the mystery fish.

7) The N. crosomus has larger fins in relation to body size than the mystery fish does.

I think that the mystery fish is a South American Nannostomus-like tetra.

 

[jose_vogel]

Tjudy,

I agree with you again

 

[Mike Wise]

I wouldn't even try to guess into which family the fish belong. The photos are just too poor for any meaningful identification.

 

[Chromedome]

Well, you forced me to dig through my slides for my own shots. Couldn't get the photos to image link properly, so just have the url links. (I think it's a problem with using Picfury.)

The Rainbow Shiner is variable, individually and by population. First picture is the first male I ever saw, in a native display set up by B.G. Granier in 1998. I believe these fish were collected in Mississippi or Louisiana, where Charlie's came from Alabama. Note the dorsal fin, and the fact that even though at a slight angle, it doesn't really appear to be at an angle - much like Blue's shot. And if you look at Blue's first shot of the two, the male has the same fin color as in my linked photo:

http://www.picfury.com/2o/Notropis chrosomus male-1.html

The dark eye in Blue's shot is on a very dark head; appears to me to be a lighting issue, not the color of the fish's eye.The key is in the second shot, however. In one of BlueBlue's shots, there is a female visible. Compare that to this photo, taken in the same tank in 1998:

http://www.picfury.com/2o/Notropis chrosomus female-1.html

I also have photos from Jim Graham, showing the breeding colors of this species. It turns completely bright red - body and fins. Oddly, the female loses color in the fins. The iridescence also seems to be reduced or absent while breeding, according to Jim's photo and those who have witnessed it.

The real answer could lie in something a still photo doesn't show: how the fish move/behave. The minnows tend to keep moving, where most Nannostomus like to hang in one spot, and most of their movement is darting from one point to another, rather than "cruising", the way a minnow does. BlueBlue, where are you? How were they moving?

 

[blueblue]

The real answer could lie in something a still photo doesn't show: how the fish move/behave. The minnows tend to keep moving, where most Nannostomus like to hang in one spot, and most of their movement is darting from one point to another, rather than "cruising", the way a minnow does. BlueBlue, where are you? How were they moving?

First of all, I really have to thank you all for the kindest inputs and discussions. That's the spirit in a professional forum (even though this time we are not discussing apistos)

hmm, my observation is that the fish are as what Chromedome has described for "most Nannostomus" in which the fish tend to hang in one spot, and dart from one point to another in terms of movement... They are also very peaceful. Plus, I was told that the male fish tends to have more shining-blue body and head, and the female fish is mainly orange and less beautiful.

I have consulted another store in Hong Kong who managed to import two pairs via Taiwan's traders. The fish were claimed to be exported out from Germany. This store told me that this species was first presented in a pet fish exhibition a few years ago. The trade name is "rainbow beauty" (in chinese) and he is selling at a price of US$260 per pair. According to the norm in marking-up price in local fish stores, i would guess this store got the fish with a wholesale price of about US$80...

 

[Crazygar]

Thats definately a "Pencilfish", in fact, Nannostomus mortenthaleri or commonly known as a "Coral Red Pencilfish". You can blur that pic all you want, thats definately Nannostomus.

Gary

 

[Chromedome]

Okay, this composite shot should come across. The blurry image was cut from the first of Blue's two shots listed in the first post. The left top is my chrosomus shot from 98, the center and right shots I took in the office of Dr. Stanley Weitzman in 2004, a live female and the tech drawing of a male. This will definitively remove the idea that the mystery fish could possibly be N. mortenthaleri. I'm not totally removing the possibility of a new, undescribed Nannostomus species, but insofar as no currently described species has the blue iridescence on the dorsum, I don't really see it as being from that genus. And no form of N. marginatus (there's no such thing as margianalis) has the black band going to the center of the caudal peduncle, they go top and bottom.

 

[Chromedome]

Oh, and this isn't part of the discussion, but here's Jim Graham's photo of Notropis chrosomus spawning in his ridiculously large minnow tank at home. Just shows the variability of the species.

 

[tjudy]

I do not think that it is mortenthaleri. I have a group of about 25 of those and they look quite different. No blue...

'Nannostomus-like' because I am not convinced that it is a Nannostomus sp., but could be something similar. Blue's description of where the fish came from and where they were they were displayed makes me think that they may well be a farm-raised fish, and that would open the debate to all kinds of speculation.

Regardless, this have been a fun exercise in guessing, but without better images I do not think we could ever really nail it down.

 

[Crazygar]

I've asked for "sharp" pics. If those were indeed a Nannostomus species (which, I do believe they are), if they become available I'll definately buy up the tank!

Gary