Wild ID - Macmasteri complex

[RustedKnight]

Hi guys, my importer has sent me these pics for identification;

These are wild caught, and I have followed this: identification guide

These fish were shipped from Bogota - Columbia.

I have established that these fish are of the macmasteri complex, but to me they don't display signs of being A. Macmasteri itself.

What are the other fish under the Macmasteri Complex?

All these fish are around the 3cm mark, these photos were taken 1 hour after delivery so the fish are still washed out, will be looking to get new photos as soon as they colour up.

So can you please help me ID these little guys, worst case scenario they're wild Macs and i'll add them to strengthen my strain of domestic macs.
Best case scenario, they're A. Viejita.

-=new photos=-

 

[Mike Wise]

They probably are macmasteri-complex fish, but at 3 cm they are too young to really show many species diagnostic features. Please try again when the males have sexed out. It will be easier to make an ID.

 

[RustedKnight]

Hmm okay, thank you very much for your input.

I'll have to take a chance and purchase these fish unknowing of their ID. And set them up in a species tank until they grow older.
To me they look like A. ViejitaII or Sp. Rotpunkt, but I'm rather inexperienced in this complex.

 

[RustedKnight]

Fish starting to colour up now. Looking like A. Viejita II to me.

-edit- These fish were shipped from Bogota - Columbia.

 

[Mike Wise]

"A. viejita Color Form II", aka A. sp. Rotflecken/Red-flecked is a color morph of the undescribed species, A. sp. Schwarzkehl/Black-throat (= "A. viejita CF III"). It would be nice if they turned out to be this species. Personally I don't see any red dots on the face, characteristic of Rotflecken. If it is Schwarzkehl/Rotflecken, the female develops a black stripe that runs from the lower lip and down the entire length of the throat. I'd look for this feature.

 

[RustedKnight]

"A. viejita Color Form II", aka A. sp. Rotflecken/Red-flecked is a color morph of the undescribed species, A. sp. Schwarzkehl/Black-throat (= "A. viejita CF III"). It would be nice if they turned out to be this species. Personally I don't see any red dots on the face, characteristic of Rotflecken. If it is Schwarzkehl/Rotflecken, the female develops a black stripe that runs from the lower lip and down the entire length of the throat. I'd look for this feature.

Thanks for the info Mike, should come in handy alot. The current "females" have some black markings, but not to the extent you describe. I presume this will change as they colour up.

What i would like to know is if any other fish from the macmasteri complex have these "chin stripes", as this seems to be quite an obvious marking already.

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, some populations of A. hoignei and A. macmasteri will show this feature. BTW the throat stripe on forms of A. hoignei and A. sp. Schwarzkehl that I've kept were much broader than on the fish in your photo. Maybe it will broaden; maybe not. If they were my fish, I'd just raise them separate from other apistos until the males show some diagnostic features.

 

[RustedKnight]

Thank you very much for your help Mike, much appreciated.

I've got a 3 footer set up now waiting for their arrival in the next few days, I shall then update if there are any significant changes to them.

 

[RustedKnight]

Some new photos for ID

Managed to get a couple of half decent shots this morning, hopefully they can help towards an ID.

Please excuse the water marks on the glass.

If required I can post larger photos (forgot my photobucket is programmed to resize to 800x600)

Presumed Male:

Presumed Female:

On this last shot you can faintly see the black stripe that runs from the throat back to the anal fin, about 2-3mm wide.

UPDATE
You should just be able to make out the dark tops to the dorsal fin in the following photos, also note hints of red appearing in dorsal fin + centre of caudal fin.

Excuse the fingers, I was trying to make him/her/it flare.

 

[Mike Wise]

Well, from what I see, I think that it is A. sp. Schwarzkehl. The size and shape of the caudal spot seems right, as does the width of the lateral band and lack of much red on the body and tail.

 

[RustedKnight]

Thank you for taking the time to look again Mike, it's truly appreciated.

Is there somewhere I could read up on Swarzkehl? Also, any distinguishing features to look out for as time goes on?

 

[Mike Wise]

Look in the following: Linke & Staeck as "A. viejita CF III", Koslowski's books (1986, 2002), and the DATZ Book. It rarely comes in commercially - or at least recognized as a different species, so very little information (if any) is available on line. When I had this species (contaminants with wild Rams) they behaved and spawned under the same conditions as A. macmasteri.

 

[RustedKnight]

Thank you, I will try to get hold of these books.

So if they are sp. Schwarzkehl then I have a group of rather lovely uncommon fish. Fantastic news to add to fantastic fish.
I'm going to dose for anti-internal bacteria meds for the next couple weeks (following a recent death), then once their quarantine is over i'll be giving each male a seperate tank and depositing 2-3 females per male.

 

[RustedKnight]

Well Mike, here are some new shots; I am convinced now that the male is indeed Schwarzkehl, female I think when fully coloured up will also be Schwarzkehl, time will tell.
Giving them their own breeding setup in the next few days, and then I can wait for my other 7 to colour up to see if they are the same species.

I am very pleased, ecstatic even to have such a fish. Come next payday I will be purchasing a copy of the book/s you suggested, and if you agree these fish are indeed Schwarzkehl I will start documenting their behaviour. (until I have the book I don't know how much is known about these fish)