What's your recipie for R/O reconstitution?

[awholley]

I have been using not-so-carefully measured amounts of

Kent Blackwater Expert
Kent R/O right and
Kent (?) Discus buffer

I'm not convinced these are the best things to be using to achieve the "perfect" soft acid water for Apistos. I am looking for suggestions of tried-and-true (measured) recipies to use with my new R/0-DI unit.

Thanks,

Alan

 

[fishgeek]

my recipe 100% r/o water into a 225L butt with a coouple of shovel fulls of peat in the bottom
i leave it standing and use solely when i change water

the only other thing that goes in is the daily squirt of tap which i have defrosted frozen foods in

i change the peat when the water begins to rise as far as pH

i have very alkaline hard water from the tap , everyone else will ahve there own water and own methodology

andrew

 

[Apistt_ed]

Hello Alan,

Here's what I have come to do to get softer water.

Option 1: The most tried and true ways of getting your ph to drop safely and get softer water is filtering sphagum peat. When buying peat moss, make sure it's fertilizer free(!). You can either boil the peat tied up with cloth in R/O water like a large tea bath or you can just get a large clean garbage can and fill the bottom with Peat as Andrew said and then fill it up with the water and let it set for at least 2-3 days. I've found it best to add some kind of aeration when doing this as it helps.

Option 2: If you would like to spend a little more, try "Peat Granuals" made by Fluval or Sera's "super peat". You should be able to find both in most aquarium stores. Depending on what size tank you have, take a nylon stocking and fill it with either of the products to make a fist sized ball (or more for larger aquariums) and tie it up. Hang it where the filtration would pass either water through it or air (if you're using aeration driven sponge filters). It takes about two days or so to get the values to drop and stay stabilized. I use these products myself and have found them to be great for breeder tanks.

With setting the regular peat moss in a can-method, it would be good for about 3-4 full batches of the stuff and then you'll have to change it out and start all over again.

With the tea concoction (boiling peat in R/O), I've always made no more than three batches before using new peat.

With option 2: I'll change the peat every 2 months out of the stocking with new peat granuals or super peat.

** you could also do the same as option 2 with just regular peat, but I have found it to be slightly less effective in results but the same result could be accomplished with larger bags.

Experiment a little to get the best results for you\.Hope this has helped..
john

 

[tjudy]

I have very hard and alkaline tap water, and none of the peat only methods have worked for me. I use RO/DI water and water-softener tap to reconstitute. To determine the right mix I used a good conductivity/pH meter and a KH test kit. I made a chart and started with 1000 mL of pure RO/DI when measured pH 6.0 (this is likely inaccurate because RO give funky pH readings), conductivity 0 mS and KH 0. I then made a serial dilution in 5% increments. 950mL RO/DI + 50mL tap, 900mL RO/DI + 100mL tap, etc... and took the readings for each dilution. The chart gives me a rough idea of what I need to mix in order to get the parameters that I need.

The system is not perfect. For example, the increase in conductivity and pH are not linear. The pH increases more slowly than conductivity until a KH of 3, and then the pH will increase more rapidly. For the most part I can judge the parameters in my mix by watching the conductivity. If I start with a conductivity of 0 in my vat, I can add tap water (with circulation) until the conductivity levels out at 160 mS (80 ppm TDS). This gives a pH of 7.2 and a KH of 3. Plenty soft.

With a KH of 2-3 I can use peat to decrease the pH without affecting the conductivity or KH. I will also use Seachem Acid buffer to lower the pH, but the cost is an increase in conductivity. I have not had any problems with spawning or brood sizes with a conductivity as high as 400 mS (200 ppm TDS). It seems to be the KH and acidity that make a difference.

 

[awholley]

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far. I have hard slightly alkaline water and have tried both peat moss and the refined peat as described above, neither of which had any detectable effect, though I didn't try the boiling route.

I am really hoping someone will actually provide a specific repeatable recipie. (maybe that's what's on the chart?) that looks somewhat like

1 tablespoon of product x per 5 gals
3 drops of product y per 5 gals
1 tsp of product z per 10 gals for each .1 of pH you want to reduce

I know the world of water chemistry can be a lot more complex and expensive than I want to get into at the moment, that's why I'm looking for a repeatable recipie or set of recipies that I can use "blindly" with water changes.

 

[Fatts]

I am one of those believers that there is no reason to "add" anything to my water. Unless your tap water has copper or something why waste money on stuff to put back into the water (use that money to buy more fish!!!!)

I boil my tap water with peat in it, for about 1/2 to 1 hour. That gives me a nice low PH (~3.4) and a very few ppms (~ 150) to add to my RO/DI water. I then mix 1/4 gal of the "black water extract" with about 5 gallons of RO/DI. I get PH of 5.1 and an EC of ~ 45 (23 ppm).

 

[awholley]

So you aren't worried about missing trace elements in such a high percentage of R/O water? I could certainly go the peat boiling route. There's nothing wrong with the tap water here except the pH and hardness.

I'm inferring that your mixture works well long-term for fish, and am assuming the same is true for plants....

 

[fishgeek]

the only way you will get reeatable recipes is by establishing them through tests your self

your water is going to be different to ours and we cant give you an exact recipe, make small test alloquoats and then once you understand what is happening you can do these things ona large scale
much like ted has said he did to make his water chart

i just use ro/di nothing added back
i ahve one tank with a ec of 0 and ms o that has been pretty much running fine for 6 mths
java moss is growing wildly , crypt and java fern look healthy, it also gets some filtered sunlight

i am not convinced that fish require nutrients minerals in the water .. i would(and this is my logic - not anything definiete) assume that most nutrients are ingested with the food not absorbed from the water

then again when i started i did just add back an amount that increased my ec reading to a lower enough number that i felt comfortable with

as time has passed i guess i have felt more comfortable with lower numbers and now add nothing

andrew

 

[Fatts]

I am by no means any kinda expert, but I remember reading somewhere that the problem with using straight RO/DI, is the osmotic (sp) system is stressed more. By just adding a few ppms, it releaves some of the "extra" pressure on the fish to maintain the osmotic balance (hence the adding salt to a hospital tank of sick fish, more ppms = less osmotic regulation required). If the fish is healthy then using extra energy to maintain the pressure is not that bad. I do keep, and have for a yr and a half, most of my dwarfs in this water. They all appear healthy and happy and breed like guppies.

 

[awholley]

the only way you will get reeatable recipes is by establishing them through tests your self

andrew

I understand our tap waters will be completely different, but I was under the (perhaps false) assumption that many people start with straight R/O water and then add back some trace elements (as mentioned above) and use other chemicals (it appears a lot of people use boiled or long-soaked peat) to bring the water from neutral to a low pH. If someone else starts at 7.0 pH and pure R/O-DI water, I figured their recipie should bring the same results anywhere.

Sounds like I'm "barking up the wrong tree", though, in terms of getting a simple
answer without doing the testing myself.

ALan

 

[AdamT]

My LFS carries a lot of Kent stuff, so that's what I use, mostly. Here's what I do per 5ga container of R/O (my unit doesn't de-ionize):

Kent Powdered R/O right - 1/2 tsp
A Kent KH addative - I think it might be Kent PH Stable? I don't recall, it's at home in my basement - 1/8 tsp

These I add per tank, according to directions and tank size
Kent Freshwater essential
Kent Vita (uh, can't find link)
Kent Freshwater Plant

This has resulted in my plant growth stalling out, long term (they did fine for a year and a half, maybe 2 yrs). So I'm running a couple of experiments right now to see if I can bring things around. Experiment age at the moment is about 3 weeks.

- (in a couple of tanks) to the above for I have added Kent Pro-Plant
- (in a different tank) rather than Kent Freshwater Plant / Kent Pro-Plant I am trying a liquid fertilizer called "Natural Gold"

I have also been trying to cut down on how much I feed. I used to fertelize once/week at waterchange. Now I'm trying to do it daily, when I feed.

I've got green water in one of the pro-plant tanks right now, but that happened just before I started on this experiment. The pro-plant tanks are pearling like they haven't for a while. The Natural Gold tank is doing well, but is a less intensive tank in general. Beard alge, or black-brush alge has been a problem for me.

Fish health has been excellent for the last 3 or so years.

I welcome comments on my practices.

Adam

 

[koty]

I have an idea that I developed to allow peat in the water with extensive waterchanges without having to get a loan from the bank. The basis is that peat is not required for effecting the kh or ph but rather to create a home version of black water.
I boil peat (2-4 handfulls))in a large pot in R/O water(1 liter) (when the wife is out of the house) and add a spoonfull of baking soda when the stuff is boiling. the basic (high ph) soda efficiently extracts the peat ingridents. I then seperate the liquid from the leftover peat and store in 4 degrees C. I add around 50 ml to every other 50% waterchange that is pure R/O and ocationally adjust the pH with sulforic acid (The pH in my tank is kept around 5.5)

 

[tjd]

The local tap water has tested as high as 40 ppm for Nitrates and the GH will vary from 110ppm to 380ppm, so I opt to use artifical salts to reconsitute RO/DI water. For most tanks I have a different combination largely dependent upon the tank's uses and species present. Breeding tanks usually have between 1/8 to 1/4 tsp of RO right (dry) per 5 gallons while growout tanks will have 1/4 to 1 tsp of RO right. I have found better growth from my Apistos with the higher hardness and that the RO right does little to increase the PH which usually runs between 5.2 - 6.0. I tried using some PH stable to add some buffering to the water but found it stressed the fish more then the gradual decrease in PH. Between frequent cleanings, water exchanges, and most tanks being bare bottom, I avoid sudden PH crashes from the build up of waste and nitrates.

Peat is also added to some of the filters or a peat extract is created by boiling some peat (about 2 hand fulls) in some RO/DI water (2/3 gallon). I have observed quicker growth out of my Killifish that had peat extract in their tanks although I have not taken the steps yet to make any similar observations about Apistos.

Tom

 

[ragmansrams]

i've been using pure ro for two years

and i've had absolutley no problems kh 0 gh 0 ph 6.0 some time i lower it to between 4.5 and 5.0 just to see what happens. my fish breed like crazy

 

[ragmansrams]

i use pure ro

dont add anything except sometimes to lower ph been doing it for more than two years

 

[ragmansrams]

why do my replies go bellow

curent depth

 

[Fred]

Hi All. Great thread. I have more experience with planted aquariums than with apistos, but for I use RO/DI water with Seachem Aquilibrium added in all my tanks to bring the water to the appropriate hardness (depending on the tank). It gives a brood range of minerals for the plants, and my apitstos don't have problems.

What is the advantage of peat versus a product like Equilibrium. I have always heard of people using peat, but I have never done so myself.

 

[MikeNYC]

Mine is relatively very simple, although I am probably a novice as compared to the others here.

My tap is 6.8, 25ppm GH, and 20ppm KH. I filter the tap through the Aquarium Pharma tap water DI filter. I then add back Kent RO Right liquid (1 capful per 5 gallons) resulting in PH of 6.7, 25ppm GH, and 0 KH. With 50% water changes per week, my Apistos seem to be doing well, although no breeding yet after 3 months.

I am considering adding buffer to make sure the PH is stable, since I have noticed the PH fluctuating b/w 6.7 and 6.9. Possibly Kent Discus Buffer or PH Stable in very low doses (anyone have a preference?) Is this fluctuation normal or should I be concerned?

I am also going to begin adding a blackwater extract product (a few on the market) that has peat, to begin lowering my PH.