What species of apisto do I have?

[Zapins]

Unfortunately I bought 2 species of apisto at the auction and accidentally mixed them in the same bucket when I brought them home - d'oh! I need someone to help me identify what I have.

One species has red or orange edges to its tail and the other species does not. I have roughly 15 fish that are completely mixed up, I think I can separate them based on colors but I'd like to double check what I have with you guys and gals first.

One of the species I bought was Apisto. Eremnopyge, I bought 2 males 1 female and 3 juvies. The other apisto species I bought a total of 7 of them (not sure what genders exactly or what species).

Sorry for the crappy pictures, I can retake them if you need with fins flared in better lighting etc... You can't really see the elongated tale of the 2nd apisto photo.

Male Eremnopyge (I think?)

Male eremnopyge (I think?)

Female Eremnopyge (I think?)

Mystery male (he is immature)

Mystery female

 

[Mike Wise]

You do have your fish mixed up. It looks like you have A. eremnopyge and A. cf. eunotus. Your IDs are mixed up too. A. erenopyge will show a a more slender body, a smaller caudal spot (often covered by a large sooty blotch below the lateral band on the caudal peduncle), and a more prominent spot on the flanks above the pectoral fins (lateral spot). The A. cf. eunotus will show a bit deeper/high back body shape, a larger more oval caudal spot, a blue-gray gill cover, and when the lateral band is not continuous a series of spots of roughly equal size across the flanks (no dominant lateral spot). The eunotus fish will show split vertical bars below the lateral band above the anal fin when visible on the flanks. From what I can see in your photos, your "mystery male" is A. eremnopyge. The others look like A. cf. eunotus.

 

[Zapins]

Thank you for your quick reply.

I think you are exactly right with the eunotus ID. I looked up other pictures and it looks like the fish I have.

Some of the fish are still juveniles, how can I separate them out? Can I post pictures of each fish I have here and have you tell me what sex/what species they are? I am having trouble IDing the females in particular.

Is there any danger of these two hybridizing if housed together? I put 5 in my 90g planted tank hoping to see a pair form and the others are in a smaller tank for the moment. I'd like to get a breeding pair of each.

Also, which species is harder to spawn and how hard are they to spawn compared with A. cacatuoides triple red? This is the only apisto I have spawned so far.

 

[Mike Wise]

These 2 species should be easy to separate. A. cf. eunotus will be stockier and females show a row of spots along the lateral band when that band isn't continuous. A. ermnopyge will show only 1 (or rarely 2) spots above the pectoral fins and are more slender. Male eremnopyge will show extended anterior dorsal spines and a lyretail when mature. The dorsal fin of cf. eunotus will remain low and even, and the tail round on mature fish. A. ermnopyge is by far the more difficult to reproduce in an aquarium. They tend to be shy and need softer and more acidic water values. It is very unlikely that the 2 species can cross.

 

[Zapins]

I'll try sort them out then, can't promise I won't need your help on a few of them though

My water parameters are:

| Sample               |  K  | Ca  | Mg  | Na  | TIC | TOC |Gen. Hard. (dGH) | CO3 Hard. (dKH)|
| MT Apt Tap 10/8/13   |  6.7| 58.8| 19.3| 48.0| 22.6|  2.5|  226 (12.7 dGH) |  188 (10.6 dKH)|
| MT 90g Apt Aq 10/7/13| <1.0| 20.0|  7.4|  8.3| 16.5|  4.2|  80.5 ( 4.5 dGH)|  131 ( 7.3 dKH)|

With 2 ppm PO4 and 15 ppm NO3 (for the plants), I add CO2 so I suspect my pH is fairly low, somewhere in the low 6's.

The temperature is 82-84 F.

Any tips on what kind of food or water treatment I can use to stimulate breeding? I've got a flower pot in the tank which I've seen some of the apistos entering and exiting. Not too much flirting though, I only saw one attempt by the male in the 2nd picture to get a female interested.

 

[Mike Wise]

Personally, I think your temperature is too high. It will age your fish quickly and also any fry produced at this temperature will be mostly males. Sex determination in apistos is predominantly temperature dependent. Also your dKH is probably too high to successfully reproduce A. eremnopyge, a blackwater species. If your plants can handle it, I try to cut your dGH and dKH by half.

 

[Zapins]

Hmm... Thanks for the suggestions.

I can't cut the KH and GH in my 90g tank since I do not have an RO system set up in this apartment. I've got a good one at my parent's house but that is 4+ hrs drive away.

I could move a pair (or more?) to a small 2.5 or 5.5 gallon tank where I could use distilled bottled water to soften the water with a few plants to add comfort if that would be better for them?

Also, what temperature will give me 50-50% male/females? I definitely don't want all males. Is this temperature roughly the same for all or most apistos?

Also, does the temperature and sex ratio apply to kribs as well? I spawned some about a year ago and they appear to be mostly if not entirely all male. I had the temperature up quite high when they were still eggs.

 

[Zapins]

Bump.

Any advice?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I add CO2 so I suspect my pH is fairly low, somewhere in the low 6's.

I'm not sure that lowering the pH with CO2 will help, it changes the pH by altering the CO2 ~ HCO3 equilibrium, and the pH is lowered by the small additional amount of CO2 that goes into solution as carbonic acid (H2CO3). As soon as you stop adding CO2, the pH will rise back to pH7.8 ish as the CO2 level returns to equilibrium with the atmosphere.

Also, what temperature will give me 50-50% male/females? I definitely don't want all males. Is this temperature roughly the same for all or most apistos?

About 27oC for 50:50 in A. cacatuoides, so possibly the same for your fish.

Also, does the temperature and sex ratio apply to kribs as well?

In Kribs it has more to do with pH. The reference is "Effect of ph on Sex Ratio in Cichlids and a Poecilliid (Teleostei)"David A. Rubin Copeia Vol. 1985, No. 1 (Feb. 11, 1985), pp. 233-235.

I can't cut the KH and GH in my 90g tank since I do not have an RO system set up in this apartment. I've got a good one at my parent's house but that is 4+ hrs drive away.

Could you use rain water?

I could move a pair (or more?) to a small 2.5 or 5.5 gallon tank where I could use distilled bottled water to soften the water with a few plants to add comfort if that would be better for them?

Not really, about 10 gallons is the minimum safe volume.

cheers Darrel

 

[Zapins]

I wanted to give you an update on my fish. I have a pair of A. cf. eunotus that has just spawned for the first time. The eggs are redder than other cichlids eggs I've seen, but about half seem fertile (23 eggs). I have them in a 2.5g tank at 21.6 F right now (71F). Here are the mother and father fish. Also, the A. ermnopyge are displaying and tail swiping each other, but I find that kind of odd because I don't think there is a female A. ermnopyge in the 90g tank...? There is what looks like a pair of A. ermnopyge forming in my 5g tank, which I think I might move to the 90g and see if they will breed.

Also, I run CO2 on my tank 24/7 so the pH is always quite low - around 6-7 depending on the time of day (plants use CO2 during the day so it rises to about 7, and at night dips back to around 6 maybe a little lower). Temperature is 80F in my 90g main tank.

 

[regani]

Nice looking fish - and spectacular fotography!

 

[Zapins]

Thanks.

Hmm, well I removed some of the dust and a root from the picture. Unfortunately it isn't perfectly in focus, but ahh well I can take others later and I only spent a minute taking the pic.

The eggs have hatched and I've got 23 wrigglers. Raised the temp to 75 F (it was at 71). I wonder if this will affect the sex ratio of the fish?

Hopefully they'll either take until thursday night to stop wriggling or will start swimming tomorrow morning otherwise I won't be home to feed them brine shrimp...

Here's to hoping.

 

[Zapins]

I lost a few babies since I had to drive 400 miles each way to an interview over the last few days. I brought the fish with me and my brine shrimp hatchery to feed them, but it seems that a temperature drop to 60F for a few hours on the way there was enough to kill about 12 of the 23 that hatched.

Anyway, I am back home now and the heater is up at 80F. They seem to be well fed, as their bellies look pink and full but they are just lying on the bottom of the tank not moving. It looks almost like they ate too much to be able to float properly. I poked a few of them and they wiggled around and swam off a bit so I think they are likely just too full to move at the moment. I think I remember seeing the same thing the last time I bred kribs and angel fish, so all is probably well.

What do you all think? Normal or no?

 

[Mike Wise]

Sudden temperature drops can cause swim bladder problems in fry. Some return to normal, other don't. Unless the fry were in a completely sterile tank, I see no reason to take them with you on such a trip. Most will survive without you feeding them for a few days in a typical tank.

 

[Zapins]

The fry were in a sterile tank which is why I had to take them with.

I went home for x-mas and used a car charger to heat the tank and run the filter during the 4 hour drive. I got home and the remaining babies looked good. I plugged them all in and went to sleep. The next morning I checked again and only saw two alive, then realized I had not plugged in the heater into a functional socket. Ugh. I now have two babies left. One is huge, the other is still fairly small.

Not the best of luck with this set of babies. The next set should all make it to adults without temperature issues.

 

[Zapins]

Well, I felt bad that a few of my apistos were being stored in a 5g temporary tank while I figured out a permanent home for them. Unfortunately that hasn't happened. I moved them into my 90g tank because the 5g is way too cramped, but now there are just too many of them in my 90g tank and the fish in there seem to be more interested in displaying to each other than in breeding. I suppose this is what happens when you buy a bag of apistos at an auction, you get too many fish...

I'd like to sell/donate a few of the fish I have. I think most of them are males though. Would anyone be interested in some ermnopyge males? Possibly a pair of eunotus fish? Is anyone in the Philadelphia to Connecitcut area? I'm driving up later this week and can meet you somewhere along that line. Is there a better forum for this?

Also, my last remaining baby eunotus is doing fine. He's quite big now, about a 1/3rd of an inch and quite stocky.

 

[Zapins]

The A. ermnopyge look like they have spawned. I keep seeing the female ducking into her pot and looking at the roof while the male guards the outer perimeter. They are both chasing off the other apistos and corycats from near their cave.

I turned my CO2 up quite a bit in the last two weeks, so I assume the water is fairly acidic, though I do not have a pH kit or my pH probe handy so I can't take a measurement.

Unfortunately I have to go on a trip for a week -.- right as they spawn. Grr. Well, hopefully they will be ok in the main tank with all the other fish until I can get back and steal the babies to raise them separately. Otherwise I'm sure the pair will spawn again.

 

[Zapins]

Should I be posting these questions in a new thread each time? I get the feeling nobody is reading these posts?

 

[Mike Wise]

I think no one responds because you really are not asking questions, only making statements. Most of us read them I'm sure, at least I do.

 

[Zapins]

The eggs have hatched and I've got 23 wrigglers. Raised the temp to 75 F (it was at 71). I wonder if this will affect the sex ratio of the fish?

I'd like to sell/donate a few of the fish I have. I think most of them are males though. Would anyone be interested in some ermnopyge males? Possibly a pair of eunotus fish? Is anyone in the Philadelphia to Connecitcut area? I'm driving up later this week and can meet you somewhere along that line. Is there a better forum for this?

I'll try make the questions stand out a bit more next time.