Water softeners

[Gillie]

I am moving into a new house this weekend and last night I was cleaning up some stuff that was left in the basement when I noticed a water softening system. Now I now I will do next to nothing as far as water params, but will it have any Ill effects on my apistos and other dwarves?

 

[chris1932]

Hello

If you have a water softener there are a few things that you need to know. What is the incoming hardness as "T" this is a basic phenolthaline test. Next you need to know what the incoming alkylinity is "in the form of "p, t and oh" in order to know what you will need to do.

Lets say you have hard water in the form of "T" hardness CaC02 calcium carbonate
If you have low alkylinity your pH should drift low
If you have high alkylinity your pH will drift high

Soft waters are not created equal, it is the constituents of its mineral makeup.

Whan water is softened with ion exchange resins sodium in its free radical form is exchanged for the prefered calcium ion.

If there is no alkylinity "caustic, potasium, magnesium" present during this reaction pH will be effected in the "going down" because there are no salts in the alkyline form to be liberated from calcium.

If there are forms of magnesium, or hydroxyl ions once the calcium is liberated the hydroxyl ions now left with nothing to do cause the pH to "going up" because the free hydroxyl ions have nothing to sequester "forms of calcium".

It is in these circumstances that hydroxyl replacment needs to happen. It is done with weak base cation exchange resins "dealkylizers" need to be used.

Take a gallon of you're water, Heat it to 100 degrees, test pH on the high delta "t" swing, airate during the heating up. If the pH drifts to the alkyline side +7 you will need to address pH. You will also see high KH hardness.

Chris

 

[Mike Wise]

Simply put: don't use a water softener that uses salt. Replacement of the Na+ ions of Ca++ & Mg++ ions (the softening effect; basically it takes 2 Na+ to replace 1 Ca++ or 1 Mg++ ion) doubles the electrical conductivity in the water - something apistos & many other soft water fish don't want.

 

[Mike Wise]

Simply put: don't use a water softener that uses salt. Replacement of the Na+ ions of Ca++ & Mg++ ions (the softening effect) roughly doubles the electrical conductivity in the water - something apistos & many other soft water fish don't want.

 

[Bev N]

I have a water softener installed primarily for the fish. Actually I had a whole system put together specifically to cater to the need of soft acidic water loving fish.

The first tank is carbon. This does not recharge or have a backwash system as the carbon will absorb till it can no longer hold more at which time it must be replaced.

The second in my system is the water softener. It is an ion exchange meaning that it exchanges sodium ions for the calcium and mag. ions. It does not put salt into the water as in order for those sodium ions to become salt they would need to bind to another molocule. I believe it's a 20 to 1 ratio but I'm sure Chris can correct me on that one. I'm lucky I've grasped as much of this as I have. The water softener contains resins that do not absorb but rather adsorb. In other works those calcium and mag ions stick to the surface of the resins. The salt or brine solution comes into play during the backwash or recharging cycle. This is all flushed out during the backwash cycle. No salty coffee here!

Now that the water is softened the ph is the last issue I needed to deal with. Hence the third and final tank the de-alkalinizer. This tank is also filled with resins that adsorb and must have a recharging cycle of the heavy brine solution and one with another chemical that escapes my mind at the moment. By the time the water has passed thru this system there is no cholorine to worry about and the water is soft with a ph of about 5.5.

I have Sir Altum who is thriving, a tank of happy discus, angels spawning all over the place along about 10 kinds of apistos, rams and most recently my t. candidi. So...a water softener can be a good thing. While I have not tested the TDS Chris estimates it to be around 200. In any case the fish seem to be quite happy with it.

Bev

 

[chris1932]

I agree with and disagree with Mike about soft water and TDS. I installed the system for Bev N. It is the same system that I use for breeding. I have yet to fail to breed any species of apistogramma under my care "wild or domestic" I feel that fish have less problems adapting to higher tds than they do improper pH. I was going to use Bev's wild Altum angel as my point but she beat me to it. If you go one step further with pretreatment and do RO or DI a water softner is a must have as DI resins are fouled by forms of calcuim. ROs that function under high pressure should not be fed with hard source water, or the membrains will become scaled quickly.

 

[Gillie]

Thanks for the help everyone. I just finished getting everything set up and running(I started at 2 pm and finished at 2:15 am) . The ph of my new water is pretty close to that of the old water.

 

[Mike Wise]

Please note the second paragraph in the section "Is soft water safe for tropical fish?" on the Water Resources Intl. web site: http://www.wrintl.com/faqs.asp#Is_soft_water_safe_for_tropical_fish

This company sells the water systems similar to what you are using (with salt recharge). Even they acknowledge that it will not work for all fish.

Somewhere I have a more indepth paper on the effect of conductivity on certain softwater fish. I'll keep looking.

 

[Bev N]

I agree that a water softener won't work for all species and that it alone wasn't enough for what I wanted to do. That is the reason for the third tank. That ones takes the ph down to about 5.5. TDS, according to that site, is the same on softened water as raw. The only way for me to address that was a r/o unit and after doing the research felt that the system we have installed is a viable alternative. I also use driftwood, plants and almonds leaves in my tanks. Atmosphere goes a long way!

I may in the future find the need to add a r/o unit to induce spawning in a very difficult to spawn species but as of yet have not felt the need. Now I say this while awaiting my Uaru fernandezyepezi which I do have hopes of spawning so the need for that r/o may change in the future. I know that altum and discus are very happy with the water parameters but breeding the UFY may be a different story.

Bev

 

[chris1932]

Bev
It may be more cost effective to have a tandem pair of DI tanks put in on exchange basis. Lets say that you're TDS is 200-300 you would be able to get 900-2000 gallons of water with a TDS of zero and blend up to the desired TDS with softened treated water. I still despise the idea of throwing water away with an RO.

 

[DH247]

Wow... I think between this (very good info!!) and studying for my fluid mechanics and heat transfer midterm my mind is about blown... On the upside I understand both... Hehehe!

Chris, any chance you've got an engineering b/g or have you accumulated some impressive knowledge from working in the water treatment industry?

Mike, I would be interested in that paper if you can dig it up! Water chemistry has become something near and dear to my heart.

Seeing these systems makes me very glad I'm so lucky with the local water param's here in the Pacific Northwest... very soft and slightly acidic out of the tap!

Bev, Chris... I am jealous of you tank space! And breeding prowess! Great setups guys.

 

[chris1932]

Most of the work I do is in the treatment of industrial waste water. On a good day I do get to fiddle around with tailored process waters. I feel that my degree of success in breeding has alot to do with my job. I do not have formal schooling in chemistry of engineering but I have done the job far too long to have not learned anything. I am also fortunate to work for a man who is not only brilliant but an exceptional teacher. I put up a post in the breeding section that walks through my fish room. Have a look. Comments welcome.

 

[Apistomaster]

Hi Bev and Chris,
I am somewhat familiar with the fish each of you are working with and I know Bev has wild Peruvian Scalare successfully breeding.

If I understood you guys correctly, you are using both a cation and anionic exchange water treatment system which, when running correctly has the capacity to produce water as pure and free of dissolved solids as an RO filter except there is no waste water effluent as there are in RO systems.

There is the very attractive, "no waste effluent" but each exchange resin is recharged with different chemicals unless you are just swapping out old for newly recharged resins. Since both systems produce water equally as pure, the best system is the one that costs the least per gallon of treated water.
This can go either way, depending on many variables like your cost of pretreated water and the volume of treated water you actually use.
Generally, RO water is cheaper on that basis than ion exchanged treated water but not always.

It is the single cation "softened" water that results in an undesirable increase
in electroconductivity from the surplus sodium. Whether the sodium becomes a salt depends on whether chloride ions or sulfate ions are available.
The water from common household water softeners usually rely on only cation exchange resins and that water is not desirable for fish breeding unless given further treatment; at least a RO stage.

 

[Bev N]

Hello,

I'll leave Chris to address all the techy stuff...he is the pro.

The Peruvians have spawned twice since I last spoke to you. The one clutch did very well with quite a few fry growing quickly so that batch should be a good one.

As soon as I'm able I'll get back to you on your last message.

Bev

 

[Apistomaster]

Bev,
I'm glad to hear the news that you have at least one good sized brood of Peruvian Scalare. It will be warm enough to ship more safely soon.

 

[chris1932]

One thing to remember is that in ion exchange it is almost always an even exchange by basis weights. You're two sodium that are exchanged for a magnesium or calcuim weigh the same.
The other point to be raised is that C02 saturation has an effect on the removal and resins, it also effects to what form sodium reverts. Lastly the sodium ion could and should be considered to be in a free radical state. To say for sure what form it is going to be is speculation.
I also have Peruvian Scalare breeding, I didnt want to be left out on that one. It is one of my prouder accomplishments:biggrin:

 

[Apistomaster]

Congratulations on the wild angels spawning. Looks like there will be a lot of F1 Peruvians around some towns.
I have too many of those pancake fish. Going to have to find somewhere for angel fish. Meanwhile, I have more wild Blue discus coming next week. I can't help myself.

 

[viejo]

I am getting the bug for some wild stock angels... When either of you get some F1's large enough to be safely shipped, give me a PM ( if you would be willing to ship to Utah :wink: )...