Sudden death

[RiC]

Hello all,

I hope that you will be able to find some explanation. Yesterday morning, I had a pretty upsetting view: I found my female agassizi dead. Here is the background.

I got my pair as juveniles early September. At the beginning of October they reached sexual maturity and started to spawn. I never managed to save the fry as the female always ate them. By the end of last week, I could see that she was going to be ready again, as the male was not as rough with her as he usually is. On Friday, she started courting the male and on Saturday morning she was all yellow again and back into her cave. From time to time, she would come out to court (or attack) the male, or to eat. She did it also on Sunday evening; on Monday morning she was dead (right at the entrance of the cave). I hate it when I am not able to understand what happened, especially as she was young and there were no prior signs whatsoever.

I inspected the body; no traces of bites or anything. Her fins were all erected as when she was subjugated and guarding fry (does it mean anything? - immediate death?), and her color was still yellow. I thought it could be due to eggs retention, but her belly was definitely no longer big as it was on Saturday, so I'm sure she laid eggs. Someone suggested a sudden pH variation or drop, but since my KH is pretty low (20 mg/l) I keep a PinPoint pH monitor in there, to make sure that it's ok; it is usually between 6.0 / 6.1, sometimes it drops at night but not lower than 5.85, and could go up to 6.20 during the day, so I don't believe that this could be the reason. Tank husbandry is perfect (25% to 30% w/c once a week) and nitrates are not even reading 0.5 (mostly trace).

Could anyone think of anything I left out? Thanks!

 

[BIG_CICHLID]

Sounds like it was related to the upcoming spawn. Eggbound perhaps! Or maybe overexcitement of some sort! Not sure! Have you looked for eggs?

BC

 

[fishgeek]

is egg binding or dystocia a real problem ?
or is this just something people say ?

i have seen no reference in any medical text to egg binding yet i have seen it mentioned several times in posts on different forums
any evidence/reference's

andrew

 

[RiC]

Well, the reason why I posted here is because I had no understanding at all (still don't have any) as to what happened; in years of fishkeeping that's the first time I experience that.

Spawn Binding.
"When a female fish is ripe with eggs but is unable to spawn for some reason, then her ova may eventually become necrotic and this can ultimately lead to the fish's death. This egg-bound condition is more likely to arise in those species which rarely spawn under aquarium conditions, or in situations where ripe females do not have access to adult male fish." [Burgess, Bailey & Exell, A-Z of Tropical Fish].

This is definitely not the case of my female.
I am convinced she laid eggs and that they were fertilized (I could see the male go several times with her in that cave). I cannot see if there are eggs or not as it's a deep coconut and the entrance is totally blocked with java moss.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[fishgeek]

ric i cant help you with sudden death
it is often perplexing in any species let alone in tropical fish in which little diagnostic work is ever undertaken

accidents ie like stone's lodge in gold fish mouths and blocking water flow over gills
stray voltage - though i dont think this particulalry affects fish
water borne toxins ie nicotine/insecticides etc

it is often very hard to find

egg binding is something that i am dubious about , and even the reasons given in your reference seem illogical
how many species would be able to survive, if egg's produced could not be passed non fertilised or reabsorbed, in the wild

i can understand non resorbed egg's being a particularly attractive site for infection(all that nutrient rich media)
in my readings i can find no scientifically proven egg binding
just the term used to describe fat bellied or conditioned females

prehaps i am being to pig headed

andrew

 

[blueblue]

Andrew, i think people may get confused between
the proposed "egg-binding", and "dropsy" created by
bacteria such as FishMB.

For female apistos, many people have observed that they will
release eggs EVEN if there is no male fish around... This act can help
to get rid of the excessive eggs inside the body.

While one would also see some female fish, with an
"expanded belly" died just in a sudden... it could be another
form of disease which is similar to Dropsy... According to
some descriptions in the book
"The New Illustrated Guide to Fish Diseases, by Gerald Bassleer",
we could find some examples...

ric i cant help you with sudden death
it is often perplexing in any species let alone in tropical fish in which little diagnostic work is ever undertaken

accidents ie like stone's lodge in gold fish mouths and blocking water flow over gills
stray voltage - though i dont think this particulalry affects fish
water borne toxins ie nicotine/insecticides etc

it is often very hard to find

egg binding is something that i am dubious about , and even the reasons given in your reference seem illogical
how many species would be able to survive, if egg's produced could not be passed non fertilised or reabsorbed, in the wild

i can understand non resorbed egg's being a particularly attractive site for infection(all that nutrient rich media)
in my readings i can find no scientifically proven egg binding
just the term used to describe fat bellied or conditioned females

prehaps i am being to pig headed

andrew

 

[fishgeek]

blue does gerald's book describe egg binding as a real scenario - give any proof of it occuring?

thanks

 

[blueblue]

Andrew: i didn't find it from gerald's book... ..

blue does gerald's book describe egg binding as a real scenario - give any proof of it occuring?

thanks

 

[Konigwolf]

I only know of egg binding being an issue with 1 species, betta's - seems to be some weakness that has been bred into the line, though of much less risk if they are exposed to a male, it may happen from time to time with other fish though (hell even us humans get problems down there so why not fish?)

Andrew

 

[fishgeek]

hell even us humans get problems down there so why not fish?)

just trying to be accurate , are you suggeting humans get egg bound

to me that sounds as crazy as suggesting that fish mensturate

andrew

 

[Konigwolf]

just trying to be accurate , are you suggeting humans get egg bound

to me that sounds as crazy as suggesting that fish mensturate

andrew

Well I wasnt actually suggesting that fish mensturate :biggrin: , hahaha well not in the same respect as humans but the do have a cycle of produceing eggs and releasing them or reabsorbing them if their not used, then startagain.

Also no I wasnt stating that humans get "egg bound" just that they can have reproductive complications, so why cant fish?