Sick Apisto?!

[ericric38]

Dear all,

I am new to the forums and this is actually my first post. I am currently housing 2 pairs of Apisto in my 25g planted tank and I am having trouble with my Apisto Aggassizi male. I have had him for roughly 2 weeks and he was fine untill couple days ago.

Recently i have noticed a lot of color change on my Aggassizi. When he is hiding, or when he is hovering in the tank, he would turn dark blue, but when he's feeding, he would turn into more of a yellowish color with a distinctive black strip that runs along both sides of the fish.

Ive noticed on parts of the fish, there is a thin layer of why substance. it is also on the eye, its like a thin white layer of slim. At times, i would see him brushing this body to on the rocks and HC i have in my tank, I think ive seem him do it once or twice.

In addition to that, he used to flare his fins out alot when he was first introduced to the tank, but now he stopped doing that. Also, his tail fins is tucked 90% of the time and his fray tail never got to heal, not even a bit.

He eats fin, and most the time hes very hungry. I feed only frozen blood worms and froze brine shrimp. To date, it seems like they are enjoying every meal. I feed once a day.

As far as the tank goes, its a 25g high tech planted tank with 15 cardinals, 2 ottos, 3 SAE's, a handful of shrimps, one bristol nose algae eater (roughly 2 inches long). The tank has been running since April 2011

50% water change weekly with RO water
3 squirts of florish excel every other day
3 drops of ADA ECA every other day
5ml of florish trance weekly

latest test readings:
ph: 6.8
ammonia: 0
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 20ppm
gh: ?? (dont know), is that information needed if i use RO water?

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc275/ericeric38/?action=view&current=IMG_1018.jpg

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc275/ericeric38/?action=view&current=IMG_1022.jpg

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc275/ericeric38/?action=view&current=IMG_1026.jpg

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc275/ericeric38/?action=view&current=IMG_1027.jpg

Hope you all can open the links ok. The water is a bit cloudy cause i was tying the moss to the wood earlier. Thanks in advance for your kind comments!!

 

[animalmgc]

IMO he looks fine color changes also have to do w moods he seems to be in a nuetral mood
oh I guess what else would determine if ur fish is sick or not is how is he eating

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
He doesn't look quite right and clamped fins are rarely a good sign. Frozen blood-worms have been implicated in a number of cases of ill health in Apistogramma, (live blood-worms are fine), and I'm not sure that he will be getting a good enough diet with just these and frozen Brine shrimp. I feed some live food every day, with a mixture of live blood worms, mosquito larvae, Ostracods, Daphnia, Grindal worms, small red worms (Lumbricus rubellus), earthworm flakes, decapsulated brine shrimp cysts and red astax crumb. This is probably more variety than you need, but it covers all bases. Hopefully other people will make suggestions for other pellet/dry food, that you can use additionally.

If you use 100% RO, you don't have any dGH/dKH from the water, but the fertilisers you add will raise both parameters. Your plants look very healthy, and I would be surprised if water quality was the problem. Excel is glutaraldehyde based and may not be ideal, I'm not personally a fan of liquid carbon or CO2 (all my tanks are planted), but without them you won't be able to keep your HC carpet etc.

cheers Darrel

 

[slimbolen99]

Are you running CO2 in that tank? Reason I ask, has there been a sudden pH drop? Could be acid burns, normally it's the eyes that cloud over with a white slime or slime on the scales around the gill plate. I've also experienced the same symptoms when I've done a water change and forgot to put in dechlorinator.

 

[ericric38]

Dear all, Thank you very much for all your comments.
Darrel, I also have dry food pellets from Nutrafin (MAX) and flake food from Tropical (Supervit). But they dont like it too much, my Apisto like the frozen stuff more. Darrel, you mentioned live food, but frankly i dont know where to get any, do they carry them in local pet stores? I will try to feed them a larger variety starting now. Im sure the water i use is pure RO water as its the same water my brother uses to water change his saltwater tank.

I do dose my tank with ferts, but i try to go light on my ferts as algae is also a concern for me. Since Flourish Excel is not good for the fish, i will stop using it. The reason i use it is cause i thought it will make the water a bit acidic cause my ph was around 7.6 before.

slimbolen99, Yes I use pressurized co2 and the system only kicks in when lights are on. I use a 4 tube t5HO setup and lights are on close to 11hrs a day. This also means CO2 is also on 11hrs a day. Last time I checked (last night) my ph is 6.8 and GH is low (sorry, i dont know the degree, but according to the API test kit, it only took 3 drops of solution for the water to turn from orange to green). What would you suggest for me to do if i wanted to keep a constant ph value in my tank?

You mentioned you've forgot to add dechlorinator, I use prime before, but recently ive stopped using it cause i didnt want to put in too much chemicals and i read it will affect HC growth, so do you suggest I start using it again even when im using RO water for water changes??

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Had another couple of thoughts, you have 2 pairs, is this male sub-dominant? If he is being constantly harried by the other male he will lose condition.

Darrel, I also have dry food pellets from Nutrafin (MAX) and flake food from Tropical (Supervit). But they dont like it too much, my Apisto like the frozen stuff more.

Yes, they are often fussy eaters, if he starts eating the flakes he should be OK.

Darrel, you mentioned live food, but frankly i dont know where to get any, do they carry them in local pet stores?

No, not normally other than perhaps Daphnia and Blood-worms. Ebay or other hobbiests are usual sources, if you are in the UK I'll donate some, although I assume you are in continental Europe?

If you have CO2 you don't need Excel, same with Prime and RO. I would expect that your CO2 will lower the pH of the water quite dramatically if you have low dKH (carbonate hardness). Have a look here:
<http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm> the whole site is well worth reading if you keep high tech tanks.

cheers Darrel

 

[ericric38]

Had another couple of thoughts, you have 2 pairs, is this male sub-dominant? If he is being constantly harried by the other male he will lose condition.

If you have CO2 you don't need Excel, same with Prime and RO. I would expect that your CO2 will lower the pH of the water quite dramatically if you have low dKH (carbonate hardness).

cheers Darrel

Thank you Darrel for your suggestion. From what Ive seen during his stay in my tank, the sick aggassizii is the most dominant fish within the tank. My other Apisto (shown in the picture below) is smaller in size and tries to avoid contact with the aggassizii, so i honestly doubt he is harried in anyway. On the same note, from what ive seen so farm the aggression has been light, no damage to either fish or to the rest of the community.

As far as my pressurized CO2 system goes, ive tested my water when the system has ran for 10 hrs and early in the morning when the system was off more than 10 hrs. The reading from my API drop kit shows a reading of 6.6 and 6.8 respectively. The drop seems minimal, but is it drastic for the apisto's?

Finally, for the GH and KH of my water, would it help if i mixed tap water n RO water for the apisto's? so that it would be soft enough for the fish n mineralized for the plants? just a thought.

Thanks again for your input! BTW, im from Hong Kong =]

This is the healthy apisto (he needs ID, as i dont know what kind he is)

This is the sick boss

 

[Mike Wise]

You unidentified apisto is A. bitaeniata. Your male A. agassizii, in my opinion, appear to be rather old. In the last photo he appears healthy (and a bit obese), but old.

 

[gerald]

If he stops eating and it looks like there's no chance of recovery, get him out before he dies, just in case he might have some infection that could spread to scavengers that eat the body.

 

[ericric38]

You unidentified apisto is A. bitaeniata. Your male A. agassizii, in my opinion, appear to be rather old. In the last photo he appears healthy (and a bit obese), but old.

Mike, thanks for the ID, Im very pleased with how my bitaeniata is doing compared to the Aggassizii. I took the pictures when he just had shrimp, and he had quite a few =]. Im not sure about his age, maybe he is a bit old. He is around 5cm in length including tail.

If he stops eating and it looks like there's no chance of recovery, get him out before he dies, just in case he might have some infection that could spread to scavengers that eat the body.

But are there any meds that can help him? I honestly dont want to site ard and see him die.

Thank you all for your valuable input!

 

[gerald]

If you have a spare tank to isolate and treat him in, you could try some anti-parasite OR antibiotic meds (metronidazole, flubendazole, praziquantel, kanamycin, minocycline ...???) but its a shot in the dark not knowing if there IS a pathogen or what it might be. Even if you do a skin scrape and find Trichodina or something, you dont know whether that's really what's making him sick, or just an opporunistic secondary attacker on a fish weakened by something else, like maybe an internal bacterial infection. I only use meds when I have a pretty good guess at what the disease is. If I have no clue, or if it's untreatable, then I use the clean water, warmth, and diverse diet approach, and sometimes salt, 1/2 to 1 teasp/gal.