problem with my n.morthenthaleri

[de nol]

i did'nt really know where to put this but i need your guys help..

about 2 months ago i bought a group of nannostomus morthenthaleri but now i've lost 4 specimens in the last month,they all suffered 'dropsy' as they call in english? they all looked like a pinecone and swollen stomach...what could be the reason of this loss?

waterpara's are ph 5.7
ec 35
nitrate 0
nitrite 0
temp 26.7
kh gh i don't know(probably low)

weekly or 2 weeklys waterchanges using ro water BUT this could be the problem,my water is stored in a big barrel outside so the water temperature drops 1 or 2 degrees when doing so...could this be the problem for these sensative fish and was i just being stupid or could it be something else...

 

[abrooks12376]

Not testing ammonia? At that ph beneficial bacterial stalls, 0 nitrates would lead me to believe your tank is un cycled?? Tank size?do you cut ro? Remineralize?

 

[gerald]

If the tank has lots of plants relative to fish, nitrates could easily measure zero even in a long-established tank. Dropsy/bloating means the fish's ability to regulate its internal balance of water and salt ions has failed - usually this means kidney damage, but could also be damage to gills or intestines, also involved in water/salt balance. Bacterial infections in the kidney are a common cause of this symptom, or improper diet.

 

[Mike Wise]

Not testing ammonia? At that ph beneficial bacterial stalls ...

This is an often quoted piece of misinformation. True, Nitrosomonas bacteria are the primary consumer of ammonia at typical aquarium pH values, and it does slow as the pH drops. But, then, other bacteria that are more tolerant of lower pH replace them as consumers of ammonia. There was a scientific study of this about 20 years ago.

 

[abrooks12376]

This is an often quoted piece of misinformation. True, Nitrosomonas bacteria are the primary consumer of ammonia at typical aquarium pH values, and it does slow as the pH drops. But, then, other bacteria that are more tolerant of lower pH replace them as consumers of ammonia. There was a scientific study of this about 20 years ago.

Would that explain the absence of nitrates?

 

[de nol]

no i didn't measure ammonia...the tank is now up and running for four months now and the first fish(the nanno's)came in 2 months ago..
this is what my tank looks like...size is 200-70-60 with now 14 nannostomus as only residents...

as you can see the ground is full of leaves...i have hydrocotyle leucocephala as floating/crawling plant along the sides and is growing very fast(explains the low nitrate?)i'm not really sure what you mean by cutting my ro water...you mean mixing it with tap water? if that's the case i don't...the next one i'm not sure either if i know exactly what you mean>remineralize...you mean adding minerals to the tank,if that's the case i don't do that either...diet exists of frozen daphnia and brine shrimp and dry food and live brine shrimp and white musquito larves...

 

[abrooks12376]

Im not sure here.. i do high tech planted and low tech planted apisto tanks. I'd never leave water just so.. needs minerals.. plants need minerals. Not sure about fish but I'm guessing they'd benefit from some?? How often you change water? Above poster mentioned dropsy, maybe the water needs some additives. Electrolytes, all that fun stuff..

 

[gerald]

Yes of course fish do need minerals too: Na, Ca, Mg, Cl, K, P, etc - but blackwater species are very efficient at absorbing and retaining mineral ions in water that has extremely low concentrations of them, assuming the fish's organs and enzyme systems are all working properly. If the fish's osmoregulatory functions are weakened for some reason, then elevating the essential ions a bit ("re-mineralizing" as abrooks says) might actually help them get and retain what they need. All fish, even black-water ones, need approximately the same concentrations of ions in their cells and blood plasma that hard-water fish have.

 

[abrooks12376]

Yes of course fish do need minerals too: Na, Ca, Mg, Cl, K, P, etc - but blackwater species are very efficient at absorbing and retaining mineral ions in water that has extremely low concentrations of them, assuming the fish's organs and enzyme systems are all working properly. If the fish's osmoregulatory functions are weakened for some reason, then elevating the essential ions a bit ("re-mineralizing" as abrooks says) might actually help them get and retain what they need. All fish, even black-water ones, need approximately the same concentrations of ions in their cells and blood plasma that hard-water fish have.

Ok, im going to put this Plain and simple.. that all sounds extremely accurate and extremely well researched/learn-ed... far to involved for the average hobbyist. They'd run away from that post.. now.. could you..dumb it down perhaps? Thus forum is way to quite for such a popular culture..

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Ok, im going to put this Plain and simple.. that all sounds extremely accurate and extremely well researched/learn-ed... far to involved for the average hobbyist. They'd run away from that post.. now.. could you..dumb it down perhaps?

You can't really dumb it down, but there are <"KISS techniques"> you can use to make tank management easier.

In this case it is a large volume tank with a low bio-load, we have the Hydrocotyle and Pistia (in the image) in active growth, and we have very low electrical conductivity, so it is highly unlikely that there is any measurable ammonium (NH4+), nitrite (NO2-) or nitrate (NO3-) present.

In fact I'd be quite happy straight away that <this isn't a water issue>.

I believe the males are quite aggressive to one another, so that may be an issue, they may have been wild caught and it may relate to what happened in the wild or during the capture and transportation process, or it may be <diet related>.

cheers Darrel

 

[abrooks12376]

Hi all,You can't really dumb it down, but there are <"KISS techniques"> you can use to make tank management easier.

In this case it is a large volume tank with a low bio-load, we have the Hydrocotyle and Pistia (in the image) in active growth, and we have very low electrical conductivity, so it is highly unlikely that there is any measurable ammonium (NH4+), nitrite (NO2-) or nitrate (NO3-) present.

In fact I'd be quite happy straight away that <this isn't a water issue>.

I believe the males are quite aggressive to one another, so that may be an issue, they may have been wild caught and it may relate to what happened in the wild or during the capture and transportation process, or it may be <diet related>.

cheers Darrel

Clearly you're in the know.. wouldn't you like a more active forum? I'm not a complete moron, i just focus my energies on other projects..so many people want info on dwarfs but I'd never send them here.. i should.. can't you guys be more .sociable and friendly?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Clearly you're in the know.. wouldn't you like a more active forum? I'm not a complete moron, i just focus my energies on other projects..so many people want info on dwarfs but I'd never send them here.. i should.. can't you guys be more .sociable and friendly?

I'm sorry if we've upset you, but I honestly think we all try to be friendly and helpful.

I'd recommend this forum to any-one who wants to keep Apistogramma etc. because people like Mike Wise, TomC, Ted Judy, Mark Breeze, Regani, Gerald, Apistomaster etc. have an enormous wealth of practical knowledge, if you like "they have been there and got the T shirt".

I'd like more people to keep soft water dwarf cichlids, because I think they are fascinating and rewarding fish to keep, but
we need forums on the internet where there are repositories of knowledge, where people actually know things.

cheers Darrel

 

[gerald]

OK, stepping down from my physiology lecture podium: "Try adding some RO-Right or similar mineral supplement and maybe that will help reduce the bloating" ... is that KISS enough? (Personally, i like to know the REASONS why things work or don't work).

Regarding abrooks question: "Wouldn't you like a more active forum?" My answer is: only if the additional activity is helpful. There's way too many forums and groups with high volumes of non-helpful posts, in my opinion. THIS is the one I come to when I need experts' advice on soft-water tropicals.

BTW, what exactly was too technical in my post #8 above? I really was trying to say it in simple terms that most fish-keepers could understand. If "osmoregulatory" was the offending word, it means controlling the relative amounts of mineral ions (sodium, chloride, potassium, calcium and others) and water in the fish's cells and blood.

 

[de nol]

guys,relax...you didn't upset meno just kidding but i bought some minerals today and i'll start adding when the next waterchange takes place...what food could help to create a varying diet? as i said i give life food ad frozen as well and some dry food from dennerle...should i add something more to that list?
and you guys don't think the temperature drop when changing water could have anything to do with it?

 

[abrooks12376]

Fair enough guys, this is the first place I'd come with any major issue when it comes to apistos. Not my thread anyways so get as technical as you want I just feel like sometimes it needs to be rocket science but most times it doesn't..

 

[gerald]

Naw, a few degrees temp drop would not harm them. A big drop might be stressful (more than 10 degrees) but I dont think it would cause bloat. I think this is most likely either kidney/liver damage (collecting/transport related, maybe med overdose?) or infection (which could have started before you got them). Diet sounds good, although sometimes frozen foods can spoil before they get frozen, or may have gotten thawed and re-frozen. Maybe try feeding just fresh-hatched Artemia, grindal/white worms, live mosquito larvae & daphnia if you can find any in winter, and good-quality flakes/pellets until this problem resolves. I hope the rest recover.

 

[SmudgeR]

With regards to the temperature drop, as Gerald says it souldnt bother them but if you have a spare heater or could get one that would solve that issue.
On the diet, do you ever have a 'starve day'? Or do you feed every single day? I starve all my fish once a week.
And finally a question from me, would it be beneficial to feed peas to the apistos? As with most fish, peas help 'cleanse/flush' out their system.
Best of luck de nol, and hope you solve this issue