Please help me choose my first Apistos

[Martin]

Hello all,

A group of people here in South Africa are bringing in some Apisto stock from Europe. I've been looking for apistos for a long time and obviously I'm jumping on the bandwagon.

This is the list of what will be available to order:
A. Iinca ( I assume this is Baenshi Inka)
A.eremnopyge
A.vielfleck
A.wilhelmi
A.Veijita Super Red (wilhelm line)
A.elizabethae super red
A.hongsloi super red (Wilhelm line)
A.sp Pebas Morado

The tank they will be going into has a footprint of 61 x 41cm or roughly 2x1.5 foot.
I am currently lowering my PH and GH using a 50/50 mix of RO and tap water during water weekly water changes(I have very hard water in my area)

I was thinking of buying a group of 6 fish from one of the above species to try and ensure a breeding pair or trio.
Once the breeding fish are established, I'll remove the rest

Can you suggest a fish that will be happy in this size of tank, baring in mind that my PH would still be higher than 4 and closer to 5/6. The tank is heavily planted and I will get some clay pots or coconut shells for more hiding spaces.

They will be kept with 6 Harlequin rasborras, 2 panda cories and a couple of otocinclus.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Regards
Martin

 

[bbetta]

Welcome to the forum!

First of all, you don't need to lower the pH at 5 and I seriously doubt that if you have very hard tap water you'll succeed that by only using 50% RO water. These fish are commercially bred in higher pH and are tolerant of wider water conditions.
I've never kept any of these species but I know that Baenschi is a pretty difficult fish and Viejita (which is probably Macmasteri) is easier and more forgiving.


Billy

 

[ErtyJr]

Welcome to the forum!

First of all, you don't need to lower the pH at 5 and I seriously doubt that if you have very hard tap water you'll succeed that by only using 50% RO water. These fish are commercially bred in higher pH and are tolerant of wider water conditions.
I've never kept any of these species but I know that Baenschi is a pretty difficult fish and Viejita (which is probably Macmasteri) is easier and more forgiving.


Billy

I disagree with your thinking. Yes you could likely keep these fish in 50% RO and they may do ok depending on what your tap is.

Where I disagree though is that the fish being commercially bred makes any difference. Nature took years upon years to adapt these fish to be specialized to live in soft acidic water. 10 or 20 years of us breeding them in tanks isn't going to reverse that. I believe if you have access to RO and can keep them in conditions they prefer than you most certainly should, as it is best for the fish.

But just to be clear some A. sp. in nature are found in moderately hard and alkaline water, such as A. cacatuoides. That I feel is ok in a 50% RO setup, but not just any A. sp. Because they are a tank strain. Currently at work don't have time to expand more or i would.

 

[cicrush13]

I have a breeding pair of Viejita now and they are awesome! The males are very colorful and the females are a nice yellow. Very easy to breed.
I was using 100% RO for them in that tank, with a large amount of plants and some zebra danios for dithers. The female will be relentless in chasing the other fish around when she has fry. Keep in mind that you should get something with some speed to keep them around for a while.

Hope this helps and I want to see pics when you get them!

 

[bbetta]

I disagree with your thinking. Yes you could likely keep these fish in 50% RO and they may do ok depending on what your tap is.

Where I disagree though is that the fish being commercially bred makes any difference. Nature took years upon years to adapt these fish to be specialized to live in soft acidic water. 10 or 20 years of us breeding them in tanks isn't going to reverse that. I believe if you have access to RO and can keep them in conditions they prefer than you most certainly should, as it is best for the fish.

But just to be clear some A. sp. in nature are found in moderately hard and alkaline water, such as A. cacatuoides. That I feel is ok in a 50% RO setup, but not just any A. sp. Because they are a tank strain. Currently at work don't have time to expand more or i would.

I keep my fish in 90% RO water. With my post I meant that you usually aren't able to get a ph as low as 5 with 50% RO and 50% very hard tap ( as Martin said). I have 7.7 tap and I get it down at 6.7 with 90% RO. You also don't need a ph as low as 4-5 for most apistogramma. That's all I meant.

 

[Mike Wise]

Do you plan to breed the fish in the future? If so, you should remove the egg/fry predators (catfish and maybe even the rasboras). If not, any of the deeper bodied species will be a good choice.

 

[Martin]

Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated.

My concern is the fish and plants already in the tank, I 'm worrid about a total ph crash which could kill everything in there. Also, what about traceminerals and that type of thing?

Should I remove the fish and change 80/90% of the water to RO?
My local tapwater is at a PH of 8 so looking at bbetta's results, lots of RO seems like my only hope

The fish are expected to arrive in a month, so time is the other enemy.

I've ordered some Pebas Morado, not the best looking but it came recommended by the person who is organising the import because of my local water parameters.

Please let me know if you agree that they should do well in 7 Ph. So far it seems that I won't be getting the PH to the 5/6 mark without chemicals, a road I don't want to go down.

regards
Martin

 

[Martin]

Do you plan to breed the fish in the future? If so, you should remove the egg/fry predators (catfish and maybe even the rasboras). If not, any of the deeper bodied species will be a good choice.

I'm not planning on breeding them but it is a possibility. For now I just want happy apistos.

 

[ErtyJr]

I keep my fish in 90% RO water. With my post I meant that you usually aren't able to get a ph as low as 5 with 50% RO and 50% very hard tap ( as Martin said). I have 7.7 tap and I get it down at 6.7 with 90% RO. You also don't need a ph as low as 4-5 for most apistogramma. That's all I meant.

My apologies then bbetta. It's one of those pet peeves of mine is all, I hate when people say a fish is a tank strain and doesn't need as specific of parameters! Perhaps I just misread, because as I stated at work and don't have very short breaks, usually I just skim through fast and try to answer quick.

as for species I really can't recommend cacatuoides enough. They are one of the most forgiving for parameters, and very colorful. They are very popular and for a reason. They are pretty much the ideal beginner apisto.

 

[unhappyfeet]

Just looking at your proposed tankmates....very nice choice, only slight concern is that in my experience my ottos do get chased a bit by my apistos, I think it's the stripes and the fact the ottos look for algae on the clay pots and stubbornly keep returning.

 

[chris1805]

A. Cacatuoides was my first apisto as well. Really great apisto and if not wild caught he accepts a ph of 7 just fine. You only have to make sure that your kh is lower than 5. This is easily reached by just using RO water. I know your problems with tap water, mine is a ph of 8.4 with a kh of 11, so i am almost on pure RO water in the tank. But back than i was still a little boy of 11 years old, no RO water just used some peat in that tank, they did great and even spawned. I didn't even know back than my tap water was that bad.

I currently got a couple of A. Agassizii, no wild ones and my ph is currenly at about 6.7 and a kh of 2. They do great and already spawned twice. And both spawns were on the worst scenario's ever. The first time i went on holiday for 1 week, cleaned the tank the day before but i forget to plug the heater in again. When i came back the tank was at a temperature of 20 degrees celcius but i still had little apisto's in there. They sadly were gone the next day, probably because i had to plug in the heater again and raise the temperature. The second time i had a disease in my tank, so i was using medicine and had to raise my temperature to 28 degrees, they still spawned and the eggs also hatched. Sadly after about 5 days they ate their own fry.

So to conclude my story, i would recommend A Cacatuoides or the A. Agassizii

 

[ErtyJr]

A. Cacatuoides was my first apisto as well. Really great apisto and if not wild caught he accepts a ph of 7 just fine. You only have to make sure that your kh is lower than 5. This is easily reached by just using RO water. I know your problems with tap water, mine is a ph of 8.4 with a kh of 11, so i am almost on pure RO water in the tank. But back than i was still a little boy of 11 years old, no RO water just used some peat in that tank, they did great and even spawned. I didn't even know back than my tap water was that bad.

I currently got a couple of A. Agassizii, no wild ones and my ph is currenly at about 6.7 and a kh of 2. They do great and already spawned twice. And both spawns were on the worst scenario's ever. The first time i went on holiday for 1 week, cleaned the tank the day before but i forget to plug the heater in again. When i came back the tank was at a temperature of 20 degrees celcius but i still had little apisto's in there. They sadly were gone the next day, probably because i had to plug in the heater again and raise the temperature. The second time i had a disease in my tank, so i was using medicine and had to raise my temperature to 28 degrees, they still spawned and the eggs also hatched. Sadly after about 5 days they ate their own fry.

So to conclude my story, i would recommend A Cacatuoides or the A. Agassizii

My Apisto also dislike my otos lol. I have always assumed the same, that it is because of the stripe.

I only have one tank that houses otos, and it is my large display tank where I keep my males when they are being separated from females, so I can't speak much to them annoying the females, but my males always get annoyed and chase em lol.

 

[bbetta]

The results you get by using RO depend on the specific RO unit and many other factors, so you will have to experiment.
I'm afraid I can't help you with macro elements. I'd love some info about them too.
If you're not using RO water at all, don't start by doing WC with 80-90% RO water or you'll have issues. Change your water params slowly.

Also, it is very important to acclimate your fish as good as possible when they arrive.

@ErtyJr No harm done. Written word is easily misunderstood

Billy

 

[Martin]

Thanks again guys, some very good advice.

Unfortunately there are no A. Cacatuoides or Agassizii available for this order. I'll have to settle for something else like the Pebas Morado, not the best looking fish (IMO) but at least it's a apisto.

I'll continue to do water changes with 50/50 RO mix and see where I am in about 2 weeks. The RO is from my LFS so I don't know what filters it's using.

 

[skoram]

I'm not an expert but I've heard trifasciata also do not require really soft acidic water and are fairly easy to breef. I have a small group of erythrura which are supposedly very similar to trifasciata and they seem to be doing well in my tap water which is admittedly a bit soft (110 TDS and about 2 gh).

 

[Tom C]

....I'll have to settle for something else like the Pebas Morado, not the best looking fish (IMO) ...

How can you say that?

This is from just outside Pebas, Peru, when we collected this species in 2008:

"not the best looking fish"???

 

[Martin]

Tom, I know, I know, your particular one is very cool, ( I read your collection report yesterday) but the tank bred ones I've seen online aren't that stunning...still I'm not saying it's ugly

What sort of size do these guys reach, they aren't as well documented as some of other apistos.

 

[Tom C]

What sort of size do these guys reach...

They are not among the smaller ones. Older males in captivity 6 to 7 cm.

 

[bbetta]

How can you say that?

This is from just outside Pebas, Peru, when we collected this species in 2008:

"not the best looking fish"???

This is the best wild caught fish I've seen in my life !

 

[ErtyJr]

How can you say that?

This is from just outside Pebas, Peru, when we collected this species in 2008:

"not the best looking fish"???

My god Tom. Not only is that the best looking pebas I've ever seen, but I believe it may be one of the best looking apistos I have ever seen. That is an amazing fish!

You ever sell any of the fry from that beauty? =D