Natural varieties of Mikrogeophagus ramirezi

[lab]

Does anyone have knowledge of any such differences in natural populations?

Any clues to litterature would also be appreciated

Lars

 

[Mike Wise]

Staeck collected M. ramirezi in many locations over its range, but found no significant color differences related to population or distribution. See: Staeck, W. 1993Zur Verbreitung und Ökologie von Papiliochromis ramirezi. D. Aqu. u. Terr. Z. (DATZ) 46(4): 239-242.

 

[lab]

Thank you, Mike.

No way around spelling myself through yet another german article, I guess :wink:

I asked because i just got some very nice wild rams imported from Colombia, and the females hardly have any red color on the belly, but it is probably just mood related. I guess I just have to treat them good, so they can get ready to spawn.
Another thing I noticed is that the males don't have extensions in the dorsal. They are not juvenile fish, the biggest male is probably around 6 cm (2,36 inches).

Lars

 

[Mike Wise]

Give them about 6 months of quality food and water. The females will have pink bellies & the males will develop longer front dorsal spines.:wink:

 

[lab]

I'll do my best

It has been around 14 years since I last had a pair of wild rams, so it's kind of hard to compare to this vague memory i have of their looks. I do remember them as quite big fish compared to the domesticated strains, though. I also remember them as very productive. Off course counting eggs is always an estimation, but I honestly don't think I am exaggerating , if I say they could produce around 500 eggs in one spawn
I really hope to experience this once again

 

[thegnu]

the blue ram is my all time favorite fish but i've never seen a wild caught ram in person or in a picture. i would love to think of them as much more striking and more vivid colouring than tank bred fish, but the colour and patterns the same. could someone please tell me if this is so

 

[lab]

There are differences. I don't know if the colours are more vivid, but they are definitely more mood dependant. The most obvious difference in coloration is that the tank bred forms usually have a black spot in the dorsal fin just above the lateral spot. Wild type rams do not have this. I am not talking about the first 3-4 rays in the dorsal. They are black in both types. They also differ in overall body shape . I don't really know how to put this more specific, because there are also different kinds of tank bred forms.

I have also found that the wild rams grow a bit bigger, especially the females that are not that much smaller than the males. They also produce large broods and are excellent parents btw. They are some what more demanding about water composition, but if you just provide soft water, neutral to acid, it should suit them fine.

They are, however, very timid. This can be a bit of a setback, if you are used to handfeeding your fish.

When my fishes settle in a bit more, I will try to post some pictures.

 

[thegnu]

cor that will be good, thanks

 

[Mike Wise]

If you can find a copy of Linke & Staeck's book, it shows examples of both sexes of wild Rams. Most domestic forms have more black on them than do wild fish. Domestic Rams are usually deeper bodied than the wild, too.

 

[thegnu]

i'm now going to see if i can take a picture of my rams i've bred

 

[lab]

As promised here is some footage of one of my rams. This is the biggest male at feeding time. The colours on this little fellow... well i guess this is the reason that I keep fish

 

[thegnu]

thanks very much. beautiful fish

 

[Glasgowa]

Further to what is being said, I was sold these as wild caught. Apart from the poor photo quality would you say they were or not. They were bought in Scotland and aparently purchased from Holland via SA!! The male and female are sharing a bogwood cave and letting nothing near although no sign of wee ones yet!

Thanks

Andrew

 

[lab]

Andrew: It's impossible to say if they were wild caught, but they definitely look like wild type M. ramirezi There really is no reason to have sold them as wild caught if they are not. I would look at their behaviour aquarium strain rams tend not to very shy as opposed to wild caughts.

 

[Glasgowa]

lab

Thanks for your reply. I'm sure they are wild as it was a very good LFS that I got them from. They certainly like hiding a lot and defending their territory from each other and the keyholes. Their colour is also very subtle and change as their mood does which is great to see.

Cheers

Andrew

 

[Apistomaster]

Unless one has reliable information it is hard to say whether they are wild but I agree that wild rams are not as bold in an aquarium compared to wilds.

I think they are very much wild type in coloration and pattern. They don't look like their colors were arrived at by selective breeding.

I raised a good sized batch of Domestic Male Blue X Gold and the resultant
F1's looked a lot like your fish. I began the experimental cross with the assumption that the xanthanisistic mutation had been derived from an entirely different line that the intensely colored German Blue Rams which also seem to grow to a slightly smaller maximum size than the common Asian Blue Ram and I thin the F1 gen were probably more similar in color to whatever line the golden mutation arose. These grew to be quite large Rams, very colorful but overall lighter or less intenense than a good German Blue. The size increase may have been an example of "hybrid vigor" or merely the size and color traints underlying the gold phenotype were dominant over the German Blue. In this cross I think there are muliple genes contrrolling the color and size. I felt safe in assuming the gold trait alone was a recessive trait. I did not get to follow up with phase II, which was planned to be a F1 sibling cross to see what the range of phenotypes would be expressed. It is something I'll try again some day.

Behavior and by extension brood care is something I would look to. I think the wild rams are more likely to parent rather than eat their spawns as long as they are well acclimated and provided a spacious aquaroim. Too small an aquarium and I think both wild and domestic will eat their spawns. But given a good environment, I think wild rams will be better parents most of the time where in domestic strains it doesn't matter much what you do, they still seem to have generally poor brooding instincts. This is really too bad,
I have only had one pair of Gold Rams raise only one of their spawns and it was a beautiful sight. They did everything in textbook perfect form. It was also the largest brood I have ever raised. I stopped counting at 400 when it came time to remove the fry to grow out tanks. I think the parent's brood care makes a huge difference in fry survival rates. By far better result than from artificial methods. The breeders keep the fry clean as they carry them from pit to pit, I think the breeders also macerate foods and somehow present it so the fry get off to a much stronger start. This is just one spawn so drawing conclusions are logically dangerous. I wonder, have any other forum members had an experoience like the one I described here?

 

[Glasgowa]

Apistomaster

Thanks for all your information. I personally have had no experience with breeding. My tank has been set up for 5 months now and the Rams have been in there for 3 months. I have 5 and was trying to pair them off, basically I have the 2 which are pictured above which have taken over a bogwood cave. I certainly have not seen any eggs or wigglers but they let nothing near, do you know at what age Rams become able and willing to breed?

Cheers

Andrew

 

[mummymonkey]

Rams will breed when still very small - maybe 6 months old only.
Here is a picture of some rams in a growing out tank. If you look carefully you can see a fish tending its eggs right in the centre. It's not much more than an inch in size.

 

[Glasgowa]

mummymonkey

Thanks for the advice and great picture, just wish mines were tending to eggs!

Another Question:redface: Just wondering, what temperature do you have your Ram tank at. I have been told so many different temperatures from 26-29 degrees c.

Thanks

Andrew
you also have pm

 

[cageman]

@Andrew/Glasgowa: These M. ramirezi were definetely wildcaught. They came from Colombia. I saw the fish when they were a week or so in Holland.
They are more yellow than I am used of M. ramirezi.