Inherited factors in Pelvicachromis pulcher

[tjudy]

Jim... the only wild P. pulcher I have had were exported from the Lagos, Nigeria, area. My understanding is that the fish are very common in the area and the collectors do not go far afield for them. Plus, the only other unique variety listed by location that I know of from Nigeria is the population at Isokpo, which is in the Cross River system. It is unique because it is further upstream from the Niger River than the Lagos area populations. I think that the red in the the fish you are calling 'Nigeria Red' is due to individual variability. I have had a few dozen wild kribs and some expressed more red than others. Is the color associated with a specific population? Maybe... but unless someone goes into the Lagos area with a net to find out we will never know.

 

[jmtrops]

I did list them in the WACMP under the Lagos location and I need to change it on my personal page. I was looking at Antons book page 180, the pic labeled P. pulcher red morph from Lagos region Nigeria, that fish is not what we have. The one in the book has the tail edging with red/blue like a sacrimontis and mine has it edged in orange. What are your thoughts on it?

Jim

 

[tjudy]

I think that the populations are highly variable and that one image does not represent that variability. I do not think it is that easy to ID locational variants in Pelvicachromis. Another good example are all the Cameroon populations of P. taeniatus. We can effecitively identify the region or river system a fish if from (Kribi River vs. Lobe River for example), but distinguishing between the different collection location within a single river is probably impossible... too much variation at each location.

 

[jmtrops]

I agree but I didn't realize that it was that big aproblem with the pulchers. I'm sure that the colloction info is not always acuarate also. Is your trip next month? Do you know what areas you will be going to?

Jim

 

[jmtrops]

I have 15 fish from one of the earlier spawns with the male albino that is pictured earlier in this thread. Of the 15, 6 are normal and 9 are albino. The 6 normal there is 5 males and 1 female and the 9 albinos all look like males and it looks like there are 2 types of albinos. One type has a body color white and the other the body color is yellowish. One of the white and one of the yellow were all colored up and it looks like the yellow ones will show the red better. I am trying to get a desent pic. The one female is pairing up with a normal male so i will seperate them and see what they give.

Jim

 

[ed seeley]

I have 15 fish from one of the earlier spawns with the male albino that is pictured earlier in this thread. Of the 15, 6 are normal and 9 are albino. The 6 normal there is 5 males and 1 female and the 9 albinos all look like males and it looks like there are 2 types of albinos. One type has a body color white and the other the body color is yellowish. One of the white and one of the yellow were all colored up and it looks like the yellow ones will show the red better. I am trying to get a desent pic. The one female is pairing up with a normal male so i will seperate them and see what they give.

Jim

Just to confirm Jim, is that from an albino male crossed with a red female or something else?

Looking forward to the pics! Is there red colouration on the yellowish albinos or are they just strongly yellow - i.e. a leucistic or xanthic?

 

[jmtrops]

This albino male is the father and the female is his sibling but normal color red pulcher. I'll have to email you some pics, tried posting them unsucesfully. It looks like I get normals, albinos and leucistic. It did look like the leucistic one showed the red more. Let me get some pics.

Jim

 

[tjudy]

Jim... you are seeing a leucistic fish and an albino fish in the same spawn? What color are the eyes of the leucistic?

I have been boning up on the differences. Albinism is specifically the absence of melanin, but other colors show through, if they are present.. which fish do have. A leucistic organism has a total or partial reduction in ALL pigments. They can appear entirely white or have faded colors, kind of like color on a rheostat. The key difference is the eyes, which will be red in an albino (devoid of melanin letting blood show through) and normal color in a leucistic.

 

[ed seeley]

This albino male is the father and the female is his sibling but normal color red pulcher. I'll have to email you some pics, tried posting them unsucesfully. It looks like I get normals, albinos and leucistic. It did look like the leucistic one showed the red more. Let me get some pics.

Jim

I've got the pics Jim, thanks. Do you want me to post them for you?

 

[ed seeley]

Jim... you are seeing a leucistic fish and an albino fish in the same spawn? What color are the eyes of the leucistic?

I have been boning up on the differences. Albinism is specifically the absence of melanin, but other colors show through, if they are present.. which fish do have. A leucistic organism has a total or partial reduction in ALL pigments. They can appear entirely white or have faded colors, kind of like color on a rheostat. The key difference is the eyes, which will be red in an albino (devoid of melanin letting blood show through) and normal color in a leucistic.

You've also got xanthochromic fish which have an excess of yellow and reduction of other pigments too.

I think we have a kind of leucism with the heterozygotic fish and then albinism in the homozygous fish from what I've seen.

 

[tjudy]

They would not be the same gene, though it is possible that there is more than one gene playing a role. The red eye is going to indicate albinism. Those very yellow albinos intrigue me as well, but that may really be nothing more than a very yellow strain with the albino gene. The yellow is not reduced, only the melanin is.

 

[jmtrops]

Ted I'll send copy you on the email I sent Ed with the pics. I am more familure with the terms as they relate to birds, you would think they are the same but there is some differences. All have the red eyes but some are more white bodies and other look like a durty albino but you will see in the pics.

Jim

 

[jmtrops]

I've got the pics Jim, thanks. Do you want me to post them for you?

You can post them if you like.

Jim

 

[ed seeley]

They would not be the same gene, though it is possible that there is more than one gene playing a role. The red eye is going to indicate albinism. Those very yellow albinos intrigue me as well, but that may really be nothing more than a very yellow strain with the albino gene. The yellow is not reduced, only the melanin is.

A gene isn't actually one coding section at all but a whole collections of coding sections, all of which can mutate and be selected. Some of these coding sections control the expression of the 'gene' and this is where dominance or recessivity comes from. This pulcher albino 'gene' seems to be a fairly unique situation as albino genes are usually just recessive and, with such deleterious genes as albinism which almost always mean the animal dies before breeding, they have a very heavy selection pressure to be recessive so that they are only expressed when homozygous which should be very rare.

As leucism is a partial reduction in pigment it could be that an incompletely dominant gene such as this one could well give both phenotypic expressions. It would be unusual, but then this form of albinism seems to be unusual in a number of ways!

 

[ed seeley]

You can post them if you like.

Jim

Will do....

This is an earlier albino pair of Jim's,

This is another previous pair showing lots of colour,

This is the pair that gave rise to the last group of young Jim was talking about in an earlier post,

These last three are all siblings of the picture posted earlier,

I hope I got the right picture with the right caption Jim?!!! :biggrin: