ID Norberti's?

[alexander]

I bought these guys as Apistogramma Norberti. I now have 2 males and 2 females. The males don't seem to color up much but the females brooding color is sharp. I am not sure that they are Norbertis though. Here are a few pics. I can take more if needed to ID.
This is before they were breeding.

This is one of the females with fry

This is the other female and one of the males

a male

 

[Ruki]

Your fishes definetly aren't A. norberti. Your fishes are aomething like Apistogramma sp. "Nanay" or other "cruzi-like" Apistogramma species.
Wait for Mike. :wink:

 

[jose_vogel]

I agree with Ruki but I think that it could be a ssp that belongs to the eunotus complex

 

[alexander]

Do I need better photos? I'm not sure you can tell by the snail shells that these guys are quite small and the females smaller still. I was suprised they would breed at such a small size. I havn't put a ruler up to them yet but I can in the next round of photos I do.

 

[blueblue]

Do I need better photos? I'm not sure you can tell by the snail shells that these guys are quite small and the females smaller still. I was suprised they would breed at such a small size. I havn't put a ruler up to them yet but I can in the next round of photos I do.

They of course could breed at this size because they are apistos!
By the way, they are definitely not Noberti though I do believe that they
are from Peru, probably a member related to Cruzi...

 

[Mike Wise]

Lukasz, Jose, and Blueblue are correct. They aren't A. norberti. They are a eunotus-complex (cruzi-subcomplex) species. More than likely they are A. sp. Nanay/Melgar. They need to mature a bit more for me to be certain which cruzi-like species they truly are.

 

[alexander]

They of course could breed at this size because they are apistos!

Yes I am aware they are apistos and I know they stay small I just assumed a fish to have to mature before breeding and since I was also under the assumption that they were Norberts I figured a mature size of around two inches. The males I have a about an 1 1/4" at this point.

 

[alexander]

Thank you all for the replies. It seems my hunch was correct. So how will I know when they mature. They are already breeding. I went back to the LFS to see if they had any more but the two they had listed as Norberti seemed to be males. Could these be a cross breed? Should I not breed them. Note I did nothing but put them in a SA community tank and one day I noticed a female chasing EVERYONE away including keyhole cichlids 3 times her size and numerous BNP one of which is at around four inches. Then I saw a few fry. Shall I give them a tank all their own to do their business? If so I'd like another female. If they are a cross breed shall I let the fry be fish food?

 

[blueblue]

Thank you all for the replies. It seems my hunch was correct. So how will I know when they mature. They are already breeding. I went back to the LFS to see if they had any more but the two they had listed as Norberti seemed to be males. Could these be a cross breed? Should I not breed them. Note I did nothing but put them in a SA community tank and one day I noticed a female chasing EVERYONE away including keyhole cichlids 3 times her size and numerous BNP one of which is at around four inches. Then I saw a few fry. Shall I give them a tank all their own to do their business? If so I'd like another female. If they are a cross breed shall I let the fry be fish food?

Actually, apistos can breed before they are "mature (or fully grown)";
Uwe Romer's book mentioned that A. Diplo (two-bands) can breed at an age of
3 months! By the way, both your female and male fish seem to be from the same
species or at least very very closely related. I think you should NOT kill the fry...

As a final remark, even though some fully grown apistos can be quite big (i have kept
an A. Mendezi of a size of nearly 4 inches long!), not all of
them can/will grow to that size.

 

[Ruki]

Could these be a cross breed? Should I not breed them.

I think that there is no slightest chance to crossbred A. norberti with other Apistos from different group/complex. And your fishes are from very distant complex.
So you don't have to be nervous and breed them as much as you want. :wink:

 

[alexander]

So at what point shall I pull them from the community tank. I have a 30 G ready with 3 rubbernose plecos and 4 pygmy corys and a bunch of baby swords and a few other plants and driftwood. I figure the rubbernose to be too big to get in the apistos cave and the corys too small too do damage as long as the parents are taking care of them. Shall I wait for their current brood to lapse? I doubt I'd be able to find all the fry. Lately I've only been able to spot one at a time with one of the females. The other female has colored up so either has eggs or fry at this point. I want to move them since I think some of my algae eaters may be eating the fry. Not the BNP but the SAE or flying foxes whatever they are. What would you do at this point?

 

[blueblue]

So at what point shall I pull them from the community tank. I have a 30 G ready with 3 rubbernose plecos and 4 pygmy corys and a bunch of baby swords and a few other plants and driftwood. I figure the rubbernose to be too big to get in the apistos cave and the corys too small too do damage as long as the parents are taking care of them. Shall I wait for their current brood to lapse? I doubt I'd be able to find all the fry. Lately I've only been able to spot one at a time with one of the females. The other female has colored up so either has eggs or fry at this point. I want to move them since I think some of my algae eaters may be eating the fry. Not the BNP but the SAE or flying foxes whatever they are. What would you do at this point?

It depends on your aim. Since it is a community tank, you can't expect a high survival rate of the fry especially when there are a lot of predators. If you really want to keep more fry, it may be practical to take the fry out; alternatively, you could also take all the other fish out except the mother fish. However, this may be a big project and it also creates huge disturbance to the fry and their mother...

One simplest measure is: Just let them go and see if some fry could remain under the protection of the parents...

 

[apistodave]

Atahualpa

Looks to me like there is a female atahualpa in the group.

 

[alexander]

mature pics

So I now know these are not Norbeti's. Last I heard Mike said "They are a eunotus-complex (cruzi-subcomplex) species. More than likely they are A. sp. Nanay/Melgar."
Well I moved them into my 30G and got a few more pics.

The pics above are of first male
below is a poor shot of the only female I could find

these next two are the other male

Is it possible to narrow it down to an exact ID?

 

[Mike Wise]

It might be A. sp. aff. cruzi (Picuruyacu) or something similar (see photo at TomC's site: http://apisto.sites.no/page.aspx?pageid=53 (toward the bottom of the page). There are many populations of cruzi-subcomplex forms that occur between the Río Nanay and Río Napo that really need to be more closely examined. They could all be one species (A. sp. Nanay/Melgar) or several.

 

[alexander]

thanks
I picked up another one of these guys at the LFS I got the first ones at. They still had one left. The fins led me to believe it was a female so I bought her since I have only one female(not counting unsexed juv). I got her home and compared to my fish. Her body shape suggested a male so I put her in the 75G community tank. There she took on female colors so I pulled her out and put here in the 30G with the other female and 2 males. The males treat here as a lady so my first hunch was right. I figured that since the two males have switched dom/sub roles recently they may again and the current sub male would make a perfect target fish which I fear may be needed in a tank this size. Now they are in a tank I am hoping with produce a higher survival rate of fry. I'm excited