ID and Sex of the apisto

[Mike Wise]

I always believed that Römer's A. sp. Peru-Regani was a species different from the type A. paulmuelleri. I label it as "A. cf. paulmuelleri (Peru-Regani) in my species list. Actually there are at least 2 more paulmuelleri-like forms from tributaries of the Río Ucayali - and another from the Rio Juruá in Brazil. We just don't have enough data to make a definite statement about these forms/populations.

 

[lamchops]

Mike, due to this discussion I have looked a bit closer at the pictures of the "Peru-regani", shown in Römer's Cichlid Atlas. Now I wonder whether Römer's fish should be considered as a form of A. paulmuelleri or rather as a separate species? I tend to believe the latter, because it doesn't show convincing hints of the 4 rows of rather pronounced abdominal stripes known from paulmuelleri and in none of the pictures the lateral band shows the typical „blurred“ look (I hope you know what I mean) it sometimes has in paulmuelleri nor does the caudal spot show the typical „segment of a circle“ shape either. Moreover, the pattern of vertical stripes in the caudal fin seems to be restricted to the rear part only. What do you think about this?

I always believed that Römer's A. sp. Peru-Regani was a species different from the type A. paulmuelleri. I label it as "A. cf. paulmuelleri (Peru-Regani) in my species list. Actually there are at least 2 more paulmuelleri-like forms from tributaries of the Río Ucayali - and another from the Rio Juruá in Brazil. We just don't have enough data to make a definite statement about these forms/populations.

i have uploaded some more pictures of the fish, hopefully these pictures can help really narrow that a specific name of this fish.

first up is the
Female





Male

 

[Mike Wise]

Does the male normally show the vertical bars on the body?

 

[lamchops]

Not really. This was when the light on the tank was just turned on and fed. He's usually just like the first 2-3 circles from the hill plate

 

[lamchops]

I'll get another shot of him in a different stage to show you what I mean later Today

 

[Mike Wise]

OK, I'm pretty sure it's a eunotus-complex species. Compare your fish to these collected by TomC & I in 2012 at KM77 on the Iquitos-Nauta highway:

Ignore the red colors. It's more common of fish just collected and fades when in the aquarium. This is a species I list on my species list as "A. cinilabra (no caudal pattern)" Römer has discussed this in talks and emails with me as "A. sp. Km77". I believe David Soares sold it under the KM77 name, too.

 

[lamchops]

damn mike, I can always count on your info to be super accurate.

 

[abrooks12376]

Excellent thread! You guys are top of the game

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[Frank Hättich]

A. cinilabra could be correct, but on the other hand I find it very difficult to rule out A. sp. Nanay.

 

[Mike Wise]

A. sp. Nanay has a slightly higher back (deeper body), less serrated dorsal spines (male), and a caudal spot that is more square than oblong. Maybe you are putting too much importance on the yellow pectoral fins?

 

[Frank Hättich]

I agree that the typical A. sp. Nanay has a less serrated dorsal fin and a more square caudal spot. However, I have seen specimens of A. sp. Nanay with dorsal fins and caudal spots comparable to this fish. Take for example the one shown on Tom's site http://apisto.sites.no/fish.aspx?fishIndexID=2286&gruppeID=1

Moreover, when I look at the holotype of A. cinilabra, I have doubts that A. cinilabra should generally considered to be less deep bodied than A. sp. Nanay. Apart from this, I think you will agree that there are more or less deep bodied specimens to be found within both species and that this fish isn't too slender to be A. sp. Nanay?

Hopefully I didn't put too much importance on the yellow pectoral fins, but this is in fact something that points more towards A. sp. Nanay than towards A. cinilabra.

It's not that I'm sure that it is A. sp. Nanay, but I think that the evidence for or against A. sp. Nanay isn't so much different from that for or against A. cinilabra.

 

[Mike Wise]

Personally, I think that the fish we label "A. sp. Nanay/Melgar" are actually several different forms/species/populations. This is a photo of the 'original' import of A. sp. Nanay by Aquario Nanai (Julio Melgar):

Note the deep body and less serrated dorsal fin (also the less square caudal spot). The original imports also showed a prominent red ring on the eye. I also have a photo by Julio that he sent to me in late 1998. The body was more slender, had a blue sheen, a square caudal spot, less serrated dorsal fin - and no red ring around the eye. Both forms were collected about a year apart near Picuro-Yacu del Nanay on the lower Río Nanay. Are these the same species? I don't know.

As for A. cinilarbra, is this fish A. cinilabra? Is it too high-backed/deep-bodied?

Before you answer, note that this fish (photo by TomC, my hand ;-) ) was collected at Römer's type locality for A. cinilabra.

 

[Frank Hättich]

Personally, I think that the fish we label "A. sp. Nanay/Melgar" are actually several different forms/species/populations.

yes, this could likely be the case.

As for A. cinilarbra, is this fish A. cinilabra? Is it too high-backed/deep-bodied?
Before you answer, note that this fish (photo by TomC, my hand ;-) ) was collected at Römer's type locality for A. cinilabra.

The fish looks about as deep-bodied as the holotype of A. cinilabra, thus I would say it's not too deep-bodied to be A. cinilabra ;-)
As I have said above, I believe that A. cinilabra is likely as deep-bodied as A. sp. Nanay. Even more so, when I see specimens like the one you have shown us or this sturdy guy: Link

 

[lamchops]

the female just laid some eggs. maybe a couple days ago.
how long till i see wigglers.

 

[Mike Wise]

At normal temperatures it takes about 7 days from spawning to freeswimming fry.

 

[lamchops]

exciting.

will the female eat the eggs?

 

[Mike Wise]

It depends on the female and how much disturbance that she can accept. Best bet, leave her alone and make sure you have a microworm culture or baby brine shrimp ready at the end of the week.

 

[lamchops]

i got wigglers!!.
I crushed up some flakes to throw it in the tank so they can get some food then I rushed out to get some frozen baby brine.

here is a video of them and the female
I will redo the link when the video is finally uploaded.