I think Bloodworms are the culprit

[awholley]

I have seen discussions here in the past where some people have had problems with feeding bloodworms to Apistos and others have not. I am coming to believe that some species do not tolerate them well.

I particular, I have lost two sets of A. caucatuoides after feeding bloodworms. Their bellies became distended, and they continued to eat, but I suspect the food was not being processed. In both cases, the problem started immediately after frozen bloodworms were introduced into their diet.

I now seem to be having the same problem with my female panduro.

On the other hand, I have a pair of borelli that have thrived on them and eaten greedily, and a pair of hongsloi that seem unaffected and recently spawned who had the bloodworms for the same time period as the panduro.

Does anyone know how the bloodworms cause this bloating and what might be a cure? I'm willing to try suggestions from those who will insist it isn't some kind of gastric obstruction, but I suspect it really is.

Alan

 

[Griz]

I've fed frozen bloodworm without any problems for over 2 1/2 years. However, I've read similar stories/warnings against feeding it so I am careful not to feed too much and only about one a week.

 

[nc_nutcase]

I have a colony of Apisto Cac’s that are around 3 months old which have been raised on a pure frozen food diet with about 40% of it being frozen blood worms. They seem to be doing great. Very active, colorful and breeding…

 

[awholley]

Hmm. I wonder if it's then certain brands/varieties. NC, what brand of bloodworms are you feeding?

 

[nc_nutcase]

Hikari Brand

 

[Mike Wise]

It may not be brand as much as how the frozen food was maintained before you bought it. Even the best brands can spoil if they have thawed before you purchased them. Always beware of lumpy packages or those that are of uneven thickness. There is a good chance that they have thawed and then refrozen.

 

[nc_nutcase]

Then I shuold also add I usually buy my frozen foods at PetSmart...

 

[tjd]

Frozen Bloodworms

I have been using frozen bloodworms for a couple years now and have made several observations:

1) Many fish really love the frozen bloodworms and will continue eating them long after being "full." Caution needs to be used not to overfeed. Most of my fish will slow down when being fed frozen daphnia, brine shrimp, or mysis shrimp, giving other fish in the tank a chance to consume the food without overeating but not with bloodworms.

2) Handling is important. Unfortunately, with many of the bubble packs it may not always be obvious if they have thawed. I saw a situation where one of the local chain store's freezer broke for at least a day. The food in it had completly defrosted and was warm. Upon being repaired they continued to sell the food that was in it and had defrosted, eventually they replaced all the food.

3) I have seen differences with brands. A LFS once recommended a different brand for me to try. These were individually frozen portions (in the shape of a fish) that were then combined in a tub. As the individual fish shapes were still in tact, I am confident they had not defrosted. I experienced a 15 fold increase in deaths in tanks being fed these worms. I never found out exactly what was causing the deaths but I discontinued use of the brand after some further experimenting did not result in any improvement.

4) When fed a diet of mostly frozen bloodworms the fish did not develop the intense colors as when a more varied diet was fed. A diet rich in bloodworms results in quick growth and is great for getting fish in breeding condition.

5) In most instances when fish continue to be fed a diet rich in bloodworms aftering being full grown they often die younger then their siblings that were not. This seems to be especially true for males in my breeding setups.

There is a place in my tanks for frozen bloodworms but some caution is exercised given my experience. I make sure to get good quality, including handling, supplies and feed appropriately. My display tanks may get bloodworm once at week at most, grow out tanks get them about 40% of the time, and breeding tanks 66% for short periods.

Tom

 

[fishgeek]

Does anyone have any fact on this matter?
it seems to crop up a lot and there is a lot of ancedotal evidence available on the internet, even to the point that respected authors will be against or for these products

Can anyone provide some scientific proven reason for why these products maybe so bad for fish?

Personally i use them and dont blame them for anything
andrew

 

[Refael Hdr.]

I think it has a lot with the brand because there are different qualities and differnet handling methods, and it's important to feed with high quality frozen foods especially in the case of bloodworms where fish seems to be less tolerate for pollutions and increased coliform levels caused by thawing or poor quality sources.

I feed my Apistos, Discus, Corys, Tetras and more with Ocean Nutrition's bloodworms and I have never had any problems with it. This brand supplies a very high quality bloodworms, in fact in coliform tests it seems to contain less microbes than it allowed in human frozen foods (!) and beyond that the company ensures that the stores won't sell any thawed or refrozen foods by refunding any damaged supply.

Any way, it's important not to exaggerate feeding with bloodworms because of it's high fats content...

 

[Greg PL]

I don't remember anyone mentioning it here - bloodworms' natural environment, where they are collected from, is very often highly contaminated. while there are methods to get rid of the contaminants from their bodies, I don't know many producers who would waste time and resources for it.
one feeding per month or week will do no harm (at least not immediately), but as the main dish - there is risk of overdosing the contaminants and killing our fish.
unless we are 100% sure of the source of our bloodworms, that is.

 

[padams]

Hi,
I'm new. Currently breeding cacs and macmasteri - great fun!
I've read that many people believe feeding frozen bloodworms can result in intestinal blockage...I'm assuming that this is due to the chitin exoskeleton? If this is the case, would the same problem be expected when feeding freeze-dried bw - everything minus H2O still being present (or is there solvent in there somewhere complicating matters during the drying process)? Has anyone had bad experiences with freeze-dried? If yes, perhaps this would suggest that the bw exoskeleton might be the problem (physical blockage of intestines)...assuming that most microorgs. are destroyed during the drying process. If the problem is not evident with freeze-dried, would this suggest that a food-borne infective agent is the problem? Someone put me right...personally, I've had no problems feeding freeze-dried, although this food only constitutes ~ 50% of the fish' diet....once lost a pair of panduro's after feeding feeding frozen bw

Phil

 

[Apistomaster]

bloodworms

I raise bloodworms every summer in a small wading pool. In order to raise commercial quantities I would use the same methods on a huge scale. Without independent bioassays of commercial frozen worms I don't know why they are so suspected of carrying contaminates especially heavy metals.
Bloodworms(Chironomid larvae) construct networks of tunnels in the sustrate and feed on algae,detrital matter and other microplankton. They require moderate but low dissolved oxygen levels or they die. Their hemoglobin allows them to make the most of what oxygen is available. I provide aereation to prevent sufication especially during the summer and to increase production from my pool.
They only leave their tunnels if O2 level drops too low or to under go pupation and subsequent emergence of the mature dipteran gnat.
To collect them, I have to disturb the substrate and tunnels and scoop everything up in a fine net. Then I rinse out the silt and allow the larvae filled debris in the net to just touch the receiving vessel of clean water. After most of the larvae pass through they are rinsed again and put in the fridge in a dish pan with about an inch of water.
Apistogramma seem to be susceptable to over eating and sometimes they bloat and die. I've attributed this to having way too full guts with larval chitin shells being slow to digest and that existing gut bacteria bloom and result in deaths. The issue isn't so much whether to feed blood worms but how much at a time, especially Apistogramma. I find this to be a greater problem if the larval chironomid is largest, very small larvae appear easier for Apistos to digest.
Use them every day if you want but in moderation per feeding.

 

[fishgeek]

ok now i am really confused
what exactly are people terming blood worms

i am using the words to describe a red mosquito larva like organism that i see growing in a cement pond at work each summer?

andrew

 

[lab]

ok now i am really confused
what exactly are people terming blood worms

i am using the words to describe a red mosquito larva like organism that i see growing in a cement pond at work each summer?

Like Apistomaster states they are a the larval stage of a family of insects: Chironomidae spp.

The adult insects can form huge swarms, which is why they in my country are called "dancing mosquitos". They don't bite though.

That they should be heavily contaminated is probably a confusion from the fact that they are well adapted to environments low in oxygen. This does not automatically mean that their environment is necessarily contaminated. All lakes of a certain depth undergoes some sort of thermal stratification in the summer. As a consequence of this the oxygen is depleted from the bottom layer of the lake, where the larvae live. I actually don't know how they are collected, but I suspect that it might pay off to have them in some sort of production, like Apistomaster suggests.

all the best,
Lars

 

[Apistomaster]

bloodworms

fishgeek,
Bloodworms are not worms at all. They arethe aquatic larval stage of gnats belonging to the Order Dipteridae as are mosquitos. They do not bite.
There lifecycle has some similarities with mosquito. The eggs are layed in small rafts on the water, hath out and fall into the bottom of a lake, pond or for dome species, slow moving streams.Once i the mud they live as I described in my previous post. The main difference is because of their hemoglobin they can extract dissolve oxygen directly from the water whereas mosquitos use a snorkel andd get their O2 from the atmosphere. Once they pupate a layer of gas forms beneath the pupal husk and they become positively bouyant and slowly rise to the surface. Once they reach the surface the exposed part of the skin splits open and a fully formed flying adult takes to the air and mates starting the cycle over. They make up so much of a lake's biomass that trout living in the same lake will often exceed 50% of it's total diet of the more accessable pupae.
Diptera are all the two winged flies of the world. They exist in vast numbers in both temperate and tropical waters around the world.
I have caught rainbow trout of 7lbs on my own hand tied pupae fly imitation tied on only a size #18 barbless hook. What they lack in size they make up in numbers. Numbers sufficient to grow huge trout. But they fulllfill the same position in the food chain of other fish like discus, angels and Apistogrammas.

 

[awholley]

Apistogramma seem to be susceptable to over eating and sometimes they bloat and die. I've attributed this to having way too full guts with larval chitin shells being slow to digest and that existing gut bacteria bloom and result in deaths.

Assuming this is correct, anyone have recommendations on how to save my female panduro?

Alan

 

[fishgeek]

swollen belly with normal appetite maybe cestodes or tapeworm

equally so it maybe nloat that is not in the gastrointestinal tract and hence no t affecting the appetite
i would expect any type of blockage constipation issu to put the fish off there food

faecal samples should help exclude gastrointestinal issues

then i guess look at treating the nebululous bloat/dropsy situation with antibacterial remedies

andrew

 

[Apistomaster]

fishgeek,
If your Panduro is already symtomatic the prognosis is not good. I may be more cynical than most but certain generalities seem to apply to Apistogramma. One partner of a pair always dies if you have spawned them once and not salvaged any fry. One partner of a pair often kills the other because no replacements are available. Something they eat disagrees with them and some die. If you really like a certain species and lavish it with the best of everything, it will die.
These fish are perverse; sometimes those you ignore the most live the longest. By all means perform autopsies/fecal analysis. Hell, that's why I have a lab grade microscope. I've learned all kinds of things about fish diseases that have no practical treatments.
Just keep at it and sometimes you end up with a mess of fry from some rare and beautiful species. Getting there is half the fun and all the expense.