German Blue Ram - HITH?

[beantown]

Let me know what you guys think. A large white 'eruption' between the eyes. Is it HITH? She's been fine for a couple of months on pellet food. Tank is re-con RO and is always >80. Should I switch up her diet? Is she a goner?

Thanks for any help!!

 

[Mike Wise]

It doesn't look like hole-in-the-head syndrome to me. HITH is inflamation and erosion of sensory pores on the head and body. I don't think any pores occur on the top of the head. This looks more like a cut/gash on the head. If it were my fish, I would remove her to a small, very clean hospital tank. Then I would treat with clean water changes every day. I don't use medicines unless I know they will be useful. A fungicide or salt, your choice, is useful if the wound becomes fungused. Pellet foods are a fine staple, but fish should get a more varied diet. No food has all of the needed nutrients.

 

[flashbang]

hi, looks like hexamita to me, same symtoms as i had with my rams.
I would medicate the tank, as it is a parasite

 

[beantown]

Thanks for the info everyone!

flashbang, what would you suggest I medicate with?

 

[geeks_15]

Mike,

So you've had success treating fish with just water changes in the hospital tank?

I've had little luck treating anything besides ich during my years of fish keeping, so I'll definitely try your approach.

I have a 30 gallon that I use as a hospital tank.

 

[flashbang]

Hi, I had the same problem with my GBR's. I lost quite a few over a period of 2 months. Just by luck i found the exact symptoms in a fish disease book i was looking in at a freinds house. You need to do a search for HEXAMITA or HEXAMITIASIS (hole in the head disease). It is in fact a parasite.
I have kept cichlids for a number of years and have never come across the disease before, but the discription of the disease was bang on in respect to my rams. The only medication i have found in the U.K is a product called OCTOZIN produced by Waterlife. This has prooved to be sucessful for my fishes and i am dosing the tanks with it every few months as a precaution.

good luck with the rams-they are great little fishes

 

[flashbang]

H, i origonally thought the rams had been fighting as they do a lot of head butting, however one day i was watching a male and there right in front of my eyes the pimple popped and a lump of pus appeared, so thats when i went to my freinds house and read his book.

This is what the book said-quote

HEXAMITA
a parasitic disease primarily of cichlid fish, some authorities consider that most, if not all aquqrium cichlids are infected. the parasites are readily transmitted from cichlid to cichlid.
SIGNS
White stringy FAECES, sometimes also but not allways,accompanied by enlargement of the sensory pores of the head, which usually also become filled with whitish pus.
Dark colorisation and loss of appetite are common in advanced cases.
Both emanciation and distended body have been reported
CAUSE
These weakly pathogenic parasites are commonly found in small numbers in the intestines of cichlids, where they do no apparent harm under normal circumstances.
If however the fish is weakened (e.g. disease,stress,environmental problem) the parasitees multiply and migrate through the fishes system.If (and only if)they reach the sensory pores do the charecteristic pus filled holes develop
Death occurs if a vital organ is invaded and fatally damaged.
Many mystery deaths of cichlids may be due to hexamita infestations where the sensory pores have remained unaffected.

As i have allready said, i had not come across this disease before but i was amazed to find the exact symptoms that i had with my rams.I am sure the medication has worked for me and i will continue to use it , i also went and bought the book.

 

[Mike Wise]

Mike,

So you've had success treating fish with just water changes in the hospital tank?

In this case, yes. I don't see inflammation of cephalic or lateral line pores, the definition of HITH syndrome. This is why I am not certain that it actually is HITH. I don't think anyone really knows the cause of HITH. Cultures often show Hexamita, but this is just as likely a secondary infestation of a stressed fish. Treating for Hexamita might remove the secondary parasite, but it is not necessarily a cure for the primary problem. To me it looks like a cut/gash on the top of the head where there are no sensory pores. For me, a clean environment and the fish's natural immune system should be enough to heal the cut. As I wrote, "I don't use medicines unless I know they will be useful." In this case I don't think that a shotgun approach of antibiotics, antiparasitics, and anti-fungals is useful. It certainly isn't cost effective. I hate to sound unfeeling, but we are looking at spending a lot of $$ to medicate a <$10.00 fish.

I've had little luck treating anything besides ich during my years of fish keeping, so I'll definitely try your approach.

I think this is true for most aquarists. Treating unknown problems by throwing chemicals into a tank usually doesn't work. We commonly discover a problem when it is too far advanced to affect a successful cure. This is why it's important to give our fish proper maintenance (tank cleaning, regular water changes, good foods, etc.), which provides as close to ideal conditions as possible. This keeps the fish naturally healthy and able to resist infections. It's equally important to observe your fish. I always look for odd behavior. It usually indicates a problem. This is when I remove a fish to a small hospital tank for continued observation. I keep a couple of 3 - 10 gallon tanks (clean and dry) available. These tanks don't need a light, just a sponge filter, heat and a couple pieces of PVC pipe for hiding places. Bare tanks make it easier to examine the fish, to see if is eating, check on feces, and if needed easy sterilization. As you know by now, I consider a quarantine tank the most important piece of equipment in my fish room. Because of this, I can't remember when I last had fish catch any disease in my other tanks. If I recognize a problem in a quarantine tank that I know the cure (mostly gill and intestinal parasites), only then do I use medications. Most internal bacterial infections are hard to treat with medicines. Ideally, the medications need to be eaten by the fish to be most effective. Antibiotic "baths" aren't as effective because the fish's physiology is designed to keep out water and products dissolved in it. In many cases optimal water conditions and the fish's natural immune system is just as effective. This might go counter to the experiences of others, but it has worked for me for decades - including experience in the retail and wholesale fish trade.

I have a 30 gallon that I use as a hospital tank.

Wow, that's a pretty big tank for a hospital tank for dc's. Small tanks need less medicines when used and are easier to examine fish in. For me, it's even kind of big for a quarantine tank unless you bring in large numbers of fish at a time.

 

[flashbang]

Mike
If i have a problem in my community tank then isolating a fish will not help the rest of the fish in the community tank. I will hit the problem with everything i can.This is not about money to a certain extent, but trying to help the fishes the best i can and to enjoy the pleasure of the tank. not everyone has a few spare tanks waiting for a problem to happen, my spare tank was holding fry at the time my rams became ill, also how long do you quarentine for?

 

[Mike Wise]

No fish goes into any of my community/breeding tanks - regardless from whom or where I got them - for at least 4, usually 6 weeks. If things just don't seem right, even though the fish are eating normally, they stay there until I feel they are OK. One should have almost no disease problems if a quarantine tank is used. Without a quarantine system your community/breeding tanks are continually susceptible to diseases and parasites every time a new fish is added. That's your choice. Mine is to err on the side of caution. Depending on what medications you use, a small quarantine set-up costs about the same as 2 or 3 treatments of a typical community aquarium. To me a quarantine tank is cheap insurance. The tank doesn't need to be up and running except when needed. Other times it can be stuck in a closet. I see cost and lack of space poor excuses for protecting your fish.

 

[D0raem0n]

No fish goes into any of my community/breeding tanks - regardless from whom or where I got them - for at least 4, usually 6 weeks. If things just don't seem right, even though the fish are eating normally, they stay there until I feel they are OK. One should have almost no disease problems if a quarantine tank is used. Without a quarantine system your community/breeding tanks are continually susceptible to diseases and parasites every time a new fish is added. That's your choice. Mine is to err on the side of caution. Depending on what medications you use, a small quarantine set-up costs about the same as 2 or 3 treatments of a typical community aquarium. To me a quarantine tank is cheap insurance. The tank doesn't need to be up and running except when needed. Other times it can be stuck in a closet. I see cost and lack of space poor excuses for protecting your fish.

Mike, I've started to be a believer of quarantine/hospital tanks the way you do it. Just a question on the sponge filter, how do you clean/sterilize it in between old-new fish in Q.tank? Currently previous fish had hexamita/bacterial infection (gone) and I'm not yet 100% sure on what the new (to-be-quarantined) fish has at the moment.

 

[gerald]

Either bleach or hot water (or both) will sterilize it. Keep a few extra sponge filters or box filters with sand running at all times in your healthy tanks, so you always have a spare filter to use for a quarantine tank. Or, you can use fast-growing plants and an airstone, and not bother with a filter in the Q-tank.

BTW - that ram above (2010 pics) looks like classic bacterial infection, and very likely to be Mycobacterium.

 

[Mike Wise]

I usually 'nuke' my sponge filters in a microwave oven and then re-inoculate with bacteria from dirty change water from a healthy tank. Right now one of my quarantine tanks has been up and running for over a year without any fish. I just haven't found anything I want to quarantine.

 

[D0raem0n]

Either bleach or hot water (or both) will sterilize it. Keep a few extra sponge filters or box filters with sand running at all times in your healthy tanks, so you always have a spare filter to use for a quarantine tank. Or, you can use fast-growing plants and an airstone, and not bother with a filter in the Q-tank.

BTW - that ram above (2010 pics) looks like classic bacterial infection, and very likely to be Mycobacterium.

So hot water can be an option to sterilize then. I'll try the airstone+plants floating on my next one. Thanks Gerald

 

[Mike Wise]

For hot water, I feel it is best for the water to be over 180°F/80°C. Even at this temperature there are some pathogens that can survive. This is why a 10% bleach solution is a better option.

 

[D0raem0n]

For hot water, I feel it is best for the water to be over 180°F/80°C. Even at this temperature there are some pathogens that can survive. This is why a 10% bleach solution is a better option.

i personally wanted to avoid bleach but i do agree on the better sterilization. Thanks Mike! ^_^

 

[Mike Wise]

Why avoid bleach? All a tank needs is a couple of good rinses and a heavy dose of dechlorinator, then it's ready to go.

 

[regani]

Bleach is a much better way to sterilise the tank. It is impossible to kill everything with hot water, even with boiling water, as the spores of some bacteria and some viruses can still survive - to kill them you need an autoclave which uses steam under pressure at about 120 degrees Celsius.
Additionally you may run into trouble with your tank using hot water. The heat is not that good for the silicone seal and the glass when heated will expand, putting further stress on the joints.
So, bleach would be my choice as well.

 

[D0raem0n]

Why avoid bleach? All a tank needs is a couple of good rinses and a heavy dose of dechlorinator, then it's ready to go.

I was afraid I'd leave a few ppm of bleach after washing it post-bleaching. Now i know the heavy dose of dechlorinator is the key. Thanks Mike!

@regani: Yeah, agree with the silicone seal & glass expansion. Good thing I haven't started cleaning as I'm waiting for the weekend. Thanks!