dying wild caught macmasteri

[cootwarm]

Hi,

2 of my 6 wild caught macmasteri are now dying. I saw no rubbing or scratching before hand. They are dying very slowly, appear to have trouble breathing, the muscles that work the pectoral fins look red and prehaps inflamed as does the gill area. One just lies on it's side and the other rolls side to side on it's back. Their fins look a little bit tattered, but I'm not sure if it's related to the problem or is caused by lying and rolling on the sand bottom.

I received them late on Tuesday, they were all active and alert. I noticed no problems. I've witnessed no aggression between themselves or against the 10 cardinal tetras that were already in the tank before I got the macmasteri. Everything looked fine and peaceful. But Friday afternoon I came home and found all 10 cardinals dead, floating on the surface, even though everything was fine in the morning.

I noticed 2 of the female macmasteri were brooding so I assumed the cardinals had been killed by the macmasteri. Now earlier this afternoon (after 5 days) I found 1 macmasteri lying on the bottom breathing heavily and a short time ago the second one.

I did a large 50% to 60% water change on Tuesday before I added the macmasteri. I also did a 1/3 water change Friday evening after finding the dead cardinals.

The tank was only setup 3 or 4 weeks ago, but I used 2 sponge filters with one used and active from another tank. The new sponge filter was inoculated with 'dirty' water from another used and active sponge. This is the way I've always done it and it works great. Also the 10 cardinals have been in the tank since it was setup.

This is my first experience with anything more serious than Ick!

Thanks,
Michael

 

[fishgeek]

red colouration on the paler belly area's of fish is often associated with bacterial septiceamia
possibly they were carrying something that the stress of movement has allowed to show itself and the naive cardinals succumbed to rather quickly

in my limited experience i have only recognised internal parasitism as problems in wild caught fish

antibiotic medicated feeds maybe best if they are feeding otherwise medication in water and possibly up the hardness to reduce osmotic stress especially if seeing panting and the water is very soft

dependant on bacteria it is sometimes worth increasing temperature , though i assume you already have 28 celsius or so in the tank

good luck
andrew

 

[cootwarm]

Hi Andrew,

So far I've still only lost the 2 macmasteri, but the rest I now think are definitely sick. I wasn't entirely sure that it wasn't an aggression problem, but now I'm sure they are sick. What looked to be torn fins now look like fin rot. There are now also white spots that look like ick, but they are only on the end of the fins and only on areas that appear rotted.

I tested the tank for Nitrite and ammonia (no reading of either). I don't use heaters but currently the temp is just under 28C, the pH=7.4, GH=8, KH=4.

Today I picked up some tetracycline tablets that dissolve in the water. The LFS didn't have any medicated foods, all the meds were dissolvable tablets.

Now the questions!
Is tetracycline the proper med for this problem?
Is there something different I can use that won't effect the filter bacteria?
Is there something better?
One fish is unaffected, should I remove it before treating the others?
I know apistos don't like salt in their water, but temporarily, for medicinal purposes would a small amount help?

Thanks,
Michael

 

[fishgeek]

sounds like there maybe some flexibacteria/flavobacteria type complications
equally so the white patches maybe lymphoid response(immune cells)

tetracycline is at least an antibiotic though widespread use in aquatics has lead to high levels of resistance in koi bacterial conditions(how that relates to your fish i am not sure)
it is chelated in hard water - shouldn't be a prob
is inactivated quickly by light so turn them off/treat at night

the correct medication would be established by culture of the organism and sensitivty testing... not going to happen
so defiinitly treat with what you can early- yes use the tetracycline

i have had good succes with tea tree oil products(melafix- foams a lot in soft water)in combination with other products
also with esha's products - they produce a very broad spectrum medication which seems to be a combination of the usual suspects from it's colour

salt should be of use to reduce osmotic stress on the fish , useful in gill disease to help move waste products out of the fish and maintain internal electrolyte balances
also very useful to do similar across open/ulcerated wounds

if over done can lead to excess water in the fish and add problems to the cardiovascular system
i believe it wolud help at low levels (may add hardness- see above)
and also increase nitrite toxicity though you have good water

maybe more experienced keepers can give some practical tips for the specific fish we are dealing with

filter bacteria are not greatly affected by ab's in my limited experience , though tetracyclines are definitely listed as being a problem
perhaps remove your usual filter and leave it running in a bucket somewhere else until treatment is finshed
tetracycline should not last long dissolved in tank so a water change and return of normal filter if probs with water quality arise

good luck
andrew

 

[fishgeek]

after thought you could grind the tablets with food to increase tissue levels in fish , rather than relying on just soaking them in it

if they wont eat a smaller tank that you can dip them in maybe useful for both filter and drug amounts needed to treat

vetregard by alpharma has been touted (by a reputable english fish specilaist) as being a useful immune supplement in fed

andrew

 

[cootwarm]

Hi Andrew,

Is it possible for fish to get over a bad sickness such as this without meds?

By the time I read your post this morning, I was running late for work so I didn't medicate yet. When I just got home, all 4 remaining macmasteri were active and swimming casually about the tank.

The white spots on the tips of the rotted areas of the fins are completely clear of these spots now, except for 1 that has only a couple small ones. But she looks 2 or 3 times better than she looked yesterday. The areas where the fins rotted away are looking cleaner (more defined).

What did you mean by:

so the white patches maybe lymphoid response(immune cells)

I mean, what are lymphoid response(immune cells)?

Should I wait it out? Should I medicate anyhow to prevent a relapse?

Until I hear back from you, I'll just do a large water change for now.

Thanks alot for your help!
Michael

 

[fishgeek]

sounds like if the fish look better and are eating that you should keep the meds tucked in your pocket

fish have a great immune system and when provided with optimal enviromental requirements are pretty hardy things

we stress them with travel/confinemenmt/lack of food and sometimes poor water quality and allow things that normally they could sort to show


lymphocytes are white blood cells associated with the bodies immune response's , think lymph nodes under your jaw getting bigger with flu
i have read that fish can get accumulations of these cells visible on the skin with some disease process
hence the white spots may hvae been a good(fighting) sign , i intially thought flavibacteria getting involved

the problem would possibly now arise if you decide to add naive fish to this system as the causitive organism is likely to still be present and the new fish may succumb
have the red stripes left the bellies?

In dogs and cats we say about 85% of illness will self cure, makes vets look very effective when dishing out treatment as 85% will get better inspite of the treatment not because of it
i'm sure that with fish in a healthy enviroment a good proportion are able to heal themselves

Andrew

 

[cootwarm]

Hi Andrew,

Well the sickness seems to have passed. The 4 survivors are all 100% better. One appears to have a little trouble swimming because of rotted pectoral fins. They are healed now, but a lot is missing.

Will the fins regenerate?

Thanks,
Michael

 

[aspen]

if the fin rot didn't go too deep it will, ime. lots of clean water.

rick

 

[fishgeek]

i agree with rick on the fins
well done in helping the little fella's through it

andrew