Combining two Apistogramma species in one tank?

[Bones]

Good day all. I have a 40 gallon planted tank with driftwood and lots of caves. Presently I have Apistogramma huascar in there. One male and two females. Is it possible or suggested to have another Apistogramma species in there? My Local fish shop has Apistogramma borellii in at the moment. I have a peaceful community tank with cardinal tetras and the huascar at the moment. Please advise if I am able to add another species. Thank you for your time.

 

[Erik82]

What are the dimentions of your tank. The volume is not that interesting for apistogramma.

 

[Bones]

36x18x16. Do you think the Apistogramma huascar and the Apistogramma borellii are compatible? I have heard that borellii and atahualpa are not compatible. The huascar and the atahualpa are from the same lineage.

 

[Mike Wise]

You answered your own question. A. huascar, like A. atahualpa, is too aggressive for a peaceful species like A. borellii. I would image your A. huascar consider the entire tank their own.

 

[Bones]

Thanks Mike. Do you think there is any compatible apisto to put in my tank? My local fish store also has Apistogramma pertensis, which doesn't happen very often that they have Apistogrammas at all. And you're right about the A. huascar. One of the females has claimed most of the tank.

 

[Russ Hennessey]

For me, I've had lots of trouble getting Borelli to co-exist with other cichlids. The biggest problem is that they don't compete well....even against fast moving tetras they lose out and are hard to keep fed and healthy. You may want to rethink about mixing them with other cichlids.

 

[Bones]

Thanks Russ. It just really sucks that once every year or even two years my LFS will import Apistogrammas. I like many of you have found a true love of Apistos. They are bar none the best aquarium fish I have ever kept. I had a salt water tide pond when I was young so my Grouper was right up there with the greatest pets. I digress, I think I will leave the A. borellii to another lucky keeper. Thanks for your help guys.

 

[Mike Wise]

In a 40 breeder, there are few (no?) apisto species that co-exists safely with atahualpa-group species. You might try a Laetacara species or even Nannacara anomala. A. borellii is a wonderful apisto for beginners with a small tank: not aggressive, adaptable with regard to water values and temperatures, easy breeders and great mothers. They just don't do well with more aggressive species.

 

[Bones]

Thanks Mike. I will speak to my LFS tomorrow about the two species you suggested. I have been keeping fish most of my life, yet only recently was I exposed to Apistogramma. They are an amazing species and one to respect and enjoy. I hope to take a trip to Central/South American in the coming year to fish for myself. Any suggestions on a great location and or travel company would be great. Of course it depends on the species but I'm looking for a great time and a lot of Apistogrammas'. Wouldn't mind finding some Apistogramma kullanderi. I have been fishing and netting saltwater fish my whole life so I'm not afraid to get dirty, but wouldn't mind a little comfort at the end of the day. Thanks again for your assistance. Cheers.

 

[Russ Hennessey]

Thanks Mike. I will speak to my LFS tomorrow about the two species you suggested. I have been keeping fish most of my life, yet only recently was I exposed to Apistogramma. They are an amazing species and one to respect and enjoy. I hope to take a trip to Central/South American in the coming year to fish for myself. Any suggestions on a great location and or travel company would be great. Of course it depends on the species but I'm looking for a great time and a lot of Apistogrammas'. Wouldn't mind finding some Apistogramma kullanderi. I have been fishing and netting saltwater fish my whole life so I'm not afraid to get dirty, but wouldn't mind a little comfort at the end of the day. Thanks again for your assistance. Cheers.

Hi again Bones,
I meant to say "dwarf cichlids/apistos" when i commented earlier about cichlids. Right now I am taking a run at breeding Apistos now and started with them after taking a break from a 20 year run keeping just about everything else. With Apistos besides WC ones I have had the most problem with Borellis and as Mike says if you keep them in a single species tank they are really nice! and for the most part they've been a very good experience to keep and the have great "cichlid" personalities without the hyper aggression of some other cichlids. For me these are the perfect fish for the hobbyist and with the amount of captive bred fish that are PH and GH/KH tolerant its not to hard to give them a suitable habitat. Have fun and ask away as people like Mike W are hugely knowedgeable and willing to help... CHeers and good luck. Russ

 

[gerald]

Agree with Mike that Laetacara might be a better fit than a 2nd Apisto species, or maybe Keyholes, Bolivian ram, Crenicara, Pelvicachromis silviae (seems to be less territorial than other Pelv's IME), Anomalochromis thomasi, or how about an Anabantoid (Betta picta or enisae, small Ctenopoma, etc).

 

[Mike Wise]

I don't recommend mixing Neotropical and West African species mostly because communicating aggression & submission are very different. Apistos are only found in South America (Amazon/Orinoco/Paraguay river systems). When I collected in Peru (mostly) with TomC we didn't use tour companies, but worked with local collectors. We'd tell them where we wanted to look and arrange travel, food and lodging that way. A. kullanderi is a Brazilian species from Brazil that's never been commercially collected nor exported. Right now collecting in Brazil is almost impossible.

 

[Linus_Cello]

Right now collecting in Brazil is almost impossible.

Why? Is it related to the strict export requirements associated with the zebra Pleco?

 

[gerald]

I was under the impression that was a "good" thing - that species using fundamentally different signals would be less likely to set off each others' "hot" buttons, and thus tend to be less interested in each other and fight less. A faulty assumption on my part Mike?

QUOTE="Mike Wise, post: 96156, member: 701"]I don't recommend mixing Neotropical and West African species mostly because communicating aggression & submission are very different. [/QUOTE]

 

[Bones]

Thanks a lot guys. Some great information. I really appreciate the help. I went to my LFS and told them to release my hold on the A. borellii, they had just come in and were still in quarantine but this afternoon they were brought out from the back to be put out for sale. Funny thing is that there is one male and 8 or so females so I wanted to get the male and maybe one to three females. Oh and the male was beautiful, yellow/gold head and the blue in the body was magnificant. However because of your advise I passed. But my friend who works at the LFS has decided since I won't be taking the A. borellii he will. So at least I know they will be well cared for.
I have one tank for now and really wanted to have an multiple Apistogramma tank or multiple dwarf cichlid tank. Is it possible or advisable to have a German Blue Ram mating pair or an Apistogramma mating pair with other fish or should they be in another tank alone? As you can see by my avatar I have kept GBR before unfortunately I lost them last year. Wanted to get some more but again want to maybe breed them successfully. I have read everything I can find on breading dwarf cichlids and have both the Cichlid atlases and a few more books. Everything is trial and error I know but I'm in this for the long haul and would prefer not to lose any more fish.
What I think I will do is set up a new tank and either wait until the ACA's or get up and go collect myself. Maybe, hopefully both. Mike do you or any of you go to the ACA's? I believe it's in Cincinnati this year.

 

[Mike Wise]

I was under the impression that was a "good" thing - that species using fundamentally different signals would be less likely to set off each others' "hot" buttons, and thus tend to be less interested in each other and fight less. A faulty assumption on my part Mike?

QUOTE="Mike Wise, post: 96156, member: 701"]I don't recommend mixing Neotropical and West African species mostly because communicating aggression & submission are very different.

[/QUOTE]

The problem here is that when a SA dwarf shows submission colors they mean "bring it on, sucka" to a WA dwarf. Bad news.

 

[Mike Wise]

A community tank is not a breeding tank (where have I heard this before??). You have to decide which is more important to you. Sure, Orinoco Rams & apistos can be mixed with other fish in a community tank. Just don't expect many surviving fry. In a breeding tank reproduction succeeds only if the other members of the tank are harmless to eggs and fry, and don't disturb the breeding pair.

 

[Bones]

What are the best dither fish for Apistogrammas? I have been researching Nannostomus mortenthaleri. And in your experience does the presence of dither fish help with Dwarf cichlids / Apistogramma?

 

[chris1805]

It helps in the sense that mostly the male and female will chase away the dither fish instead of each other.

 

[Russ Hennessey]

With dither fish I find that the Apistos seem to come out more and are less skitterish and it definitely gives them something to focus on besides each other. Normally smaller to mid size and I try to always use South American tank mates for my Apistos. For me I've found Pencil fish to be very good fish. They mostly keep to themselves and don't move around too much. They also mainly live in the upper/mid water column so give good layering to the tank and stay out of the Apistos way.

I've also used many other tetras including ember, neons (all types), cardinals, rummy nose along with male Endlers guppies. I am also now trying some headstanders and hope that they school up and don't get picked on. Most are fine and they will usually school up but all can be fry eaters...

Last point, if you are planning on breeding Apistos and growing out fry you will need to think about keeping the parents alone with no other fish except maybe dwarf cories or otto's. All other fish will generally eat the fry and you will lose them 1 by 1 like that. I've created a balance of breeding (5-15g) and community tanks (20g long-30g). I start with a harem setup in a community tank and when a pair develops i move them to a breeding tank. After the fry are hatched i normally leave the parents with the fry for the first 60 days. After that I transition the fry to a grow out tank and let the parents mate again. In this way it becomes a fairly tank intensive process if you want to get fry to mature stage. Also be prepared to have male safety breeder boxes or something if the female gets to agressive wiht the male after fry are born. Luckily most of my parents get along fine and share responsibility for brood care but not always....
I hope this helps and good luck!!
Russ