Bolivian Rams - 2 questions

[Konigwolf]

Hi all, I have two questions on bolivian rams,

first of all whats the best dead cert way to sex these guys?

second, after doing a bit of reading on the net tonight I came accross a few mentions of "two spot ram" and "two spot bolvian rams" are these the one and the same and is the two spot any different from the normal bolivian except for 2 spot spots and not one? Only reason I ask is the dominent fish out of my 4 rams has 2 spots and it sparked a bit of intrest.

Konigwolf

 

[Mike Wise]

I'll let someone else discuss "the best dead cert way to sex these guys". The only way I am sure is by seeing them spawn.

The Two-patch/Zweifleck Mikrogeophagus is a separate species from M. altispinosus. It is found in the upper reaches of the Rio Guaporé of Brazil. The Two-spot is most easily separated from M. altispinosus by having a more extensive black blotch on the flanks and a large black caudal patch on the caudal peduncle. Good comparison photos can be seen on page 1121 of Römer's Atlas - M. altispinosus top; M. sp. Two-patch bottom. Unless your fish has the large caudal patch, you have M. altispinosus. This species can have 1 or 2 flank patchs.

 

[Konigwolf]

Thanks for the heads-up. Before I got into fish keeping etc I had great faith in the net for reasearch info, but now I'm beggining to know the full vageries and repeatedness (is that a word, LOL) of the net. It seems its fine for general info but to avoid confusion books still have the upper hand

Konigwolf

 

[Mike Wise]

I always am skeptical of unusual answers on web sites. More often than not they are wrong. Anyone with a web page can say anything they want, true or not. Books & magazine articles tend to be more reliable since they have to go through an editor who weeds out much of the garbage.

 

[Boupette]

Quote:"Good comparison photos can be seen on page 1121 of Römer's Atlas - M. altispinosus top; M. sp. Two-patch bottom."

It would be nice to have the pictures here. Can you do it?

 

[Mike Wise]

Sorry, it is copyrighted material.

 

[cichlidacious]

Bolivian Rams

Hi--I need lot's of help with my Bolivian Ram that i bought just 3 days ago. Unfortunately, i did not cycle my 10 gal. properly(set up on 12/28/05 only has one fish- livebearer sailfin molly and new ram)--i've been lowering the ammonia levels-added a pillow to absorb-Ph has been 7.5 lowered to 6.8 added a 7.0 liquid fix--hardness has been from 4-5. My fish ate the first day i put in tank----today, 3rd day it's still eating (tetra cichlid) and swimming around. I've been doing small frequent water changes and replaced old filter with a poly filter yesterday. Temp is 78 f

I have a couple of live plants in there- 2 weeks

What now....please help me keep my little one alive. Does he have hope?

 

[HaakonH]

Konigwolf:

To sex these is not too hard if they're big enough. From 5 cm and up you should be able to tell them apart by taking a closer look at their pelvic fins. Of all the altispinosas I have either had or seen, the first couple of rays in the pelvic fins of the males are always a bit longer and pointier than what is the case with the females. I'm not gonna tell you that this is a 100% accurate way of telling them apart, but in my opinion it is a very strong indication, unless the animals have damaged fins or are in a bad condition. I hope this helps you at least a little bit

 

[sherry]

Sorry, it is copyrighted material.

mike you should be able to post the pictures as long as you credit them in a forum like this..

I am an author and someone I was furiuos with actually used an entire page of my text to toute the back of their book.. It fell below the threshold of what needed to be paid for, and I had no choice but to consider the "quote" in the public domain.

 

[Mike Wise]

I'm not certain that this is the same. Your page was an excerpt more for editorial purposes & is not complete by itself. These photos can be used by themselves. As such, I just prefer not to test the copyright law. Besides, I would rather people by the book!

 

[Greg PL]

what do you think of this one? Two spot or not two spot
It came with Carnegiella strigata as a bycatch. no more info on origin

http://www.apisto.pl/fa/viewtopic.php?p=18198#18198

 

[Mike Wise]

It certainly is not the Zwekfleck/Two-patch Ram, but it does not look much like M. altispinosus either. Maybe these are just very young Bolivian Rams that do not have their adult markings. They actually look like M. ramirezi mixed with something else!

 

[mummymonkey]

Those are interesting fish. They do look like young, stressed out, M. ramirezi. But yes, something is 'odd' about them.

 

[Greg PL]

it's the same fish, about 1-1,3". unfortunately there was only one swimming with the hatchets. and it's definitely wild caught.
yes, it resembles both M. ramirezi and altispinosus, but the origin points towards the later. I asked some time ago if anyone heard of bolivianXramirezi hybrids.

it has a lot of blue glimering spots on the body, tail and anal fin (which was not noticed by my camera) and a bit of pink shimmer on the belly. also it has typical for bolivian rams red borders of the tail.
in stress situations it pronounces 5-6 vertical bars starting from top and ending on the lateral band, the 4th and 5th form a nice V.

I'm thinking of pairing it with "standard" bolivian ram if I don't find another one like that.

 

[HaakonH]

There is no doubt that the fish is a female M.ramirezi. It looks 100% similar to all wild M.ramirezi I have ever imported

 

[Konigwolf]

I agree with HaakonH, pic's 1,2 & 5 closely resemble my german bred blue ram when I picked him up a couple of weeks ago

Andrew

 

[Mike Wise]

These probably are M. ramirezi. Carnegiella strigata is found in the northern & western tributaries of the Amazon, Rio Purus, and Orinoco tributaries. I know of no occurence near habitats of M. altispinosus.

 

[Greg PL]

well, thanks a lot. I still have my doubts and will watch the fish closely over next few weeks. I saw quite a few rams, all bred in captivity, but none like this one.
according to fishbase.org it seems C. strigata can be found in Brazil, Peru, Bolivia, Suriname and Columbia, M. altispinosus in Brazil and Bolivia, while M. ramirezi in Colombia and Venezuela - which doesn't help much

 

[joopsg]

As for me, i sex them by looking for the tube of the female. I bought 4 pc last yr choosing 2 with a bit of tube proturding. and 2 without. Both turn out to 2 pairs taking each corner of my tank.

 

[Greg PL]

9...) They do look like young, stressed out, M. ramirezi. But yes, something is 'odd' about them.

the odd thing is it's not the stress coloration. it just looks like this, with visible black pattern. It's the most resolute dwarf I've ever had. just 2-3 weeks after being taken from it's natural habitat it actualy eats off my hand! (still showing all dark marking). while the hatchets brought together with it are very shy and nervous. no matter what, the 5-6 dark vertical bands are always more or less visible.