Apistopgramma sp Mortenthaleri?

[Erik82]

Hi all,
I was wondering if some knows which Apistogramma should be the Apistogramma sp Mortenthaleri. I don't know the fish and can't find any information about it. So I assume that this fish has the wrong name...? I don't have any photographs; saw the fish an a stocklist.

 

[dpien]

Hi Erik, as far as I know this species is synonymous with the described peruvian species A. martini, which is in the A. njisseni group. Stunning apisto with a lyretail! It's not commonly available either, I think... Personally, I'd love to keep and try to breed this species.

 

[Tom C]

The Peruvian exporters normally don't distinguish between A. martini and A. pantalone. These species are collected from the same area, and usually you'll get Apistogramma pantalone, or sometimes a mix of A. pantalone/ A.martini, when you order A. sp. Mortenthaleri.

 

[Melanochromis]

Hi all. I'm new to this forum and this is my first post! so please be gentle.

I Just want to share that this fish you talked about just arrived here in Bangkok, Thailand. The importer put it under the name "Apistogramma martini"

From what I read, I suspect they are actually A. pantalone, because the caudal spot is not round but somewhat extends along the middle of the caudal fin. There are yellow stripes at the top and bottom of the caudal fin, although in some specimens, the stripes seems to be more red.

Wonder if anyone, perhaps Tom, can confirm if I identify them correctly?

Thanks a lot!

 

[Microman]

Wonder if anyone, perhaps Tom, can confirm if I identify them correctly?

Your caudal fin marking described fits A.pantalone perfectly....
Tom and i collected these in the Rio Tigre this year along with Nannostomus mortenthaler (Red pencil 1) and Pyrrhulina spilota.
Im sure Tom will agree that our few hours in this habitat was the highlight of our trip this year from a collecting point of view.
Mark...

 

[Melanochromis]

Your caudal fin marking described fits A.pantalone perfectly....
Tom and i collected these in the Rio Tigre this year along with Nannostomus mortenthaler (Red pencil 1) and Pyrrhulina spilota.
Im sure Tom will agree that our few hours in this habitat was the highlight of our trip this year from a collecting point of view.
Mark...

This is very nice to get a confirmation from someone who actually collected the fish! Thanks.

Pantalone was what I thought too, after spending hours searching on the Internet that eventually got me to this forum.

But one thing that made me curious is the stripes at the caudal fin. On the male fish I got these are definitely yellow, not red as suggested by some. Does this mean A. pantalone may have two forms - the one with yellow stripes and other with red?

PS. When you were collecting this fish, did you take note of the water parameters?

 

[Microman]

But one thing that made me curious is the stripes at the caudal fin. On the male fish I got these are definitely yellow, not red as suggested by some. Does this mean A. pantalone may have two forms - the one with yellow stripes and other with red?

PS. When you were collecting this fish, did you take note of the water parameters?

No.... The colouration is very variable within the same population.
Yes, we got the parameters. Clearwater quebrada influenced by blackwater, pH:4.94, Cond:122us/cm,Temp:25.3

Can you post a picture of your fish?
Mark...

 

[Melanochromis]

No.... The colouration is very variable within the same population.
Yes, we got the parameters. Clearwater quebrada influenced by blackwater, pH:4.94, Cond:122us/cm,Temp:25.3

Can you post a picture of your fish?
Mark...

Thanks again. The water info should be very useful.
And here's a pic of my fish.

I think most other males in the same batch at the store have red stripes, but I picked the yellow one.
So, you say these are just variations?
I like both colors actually. Probably should make more tank for the red ones too LOL.

 

[Microman]

Yes very variable colouration.... Ive seen Red,Orange and Yellow cauidal colouration.
The black markings such as caudal spot and lateral spot are also very variable indeed. We collected female A.pantalone that i would swear were A.martini.
I personally think the jurys still out on A.pantalone and A.martini after visiting the habitat. Dont know what others think?
Pretty poor picture soon after we got them home....

 

[Melanochromis]

So you think it's possible that A. martini and A. Pantalone will be considered different forms of the same species? If that's the case, does that mean all of them will be consider A. martini?

This is interesting.

 

[Mike Wise]

I wouldn't expect any change in status. Once a species is described according to ICZN rules, it's not easy to change. It does happen, but not often. It requires the agreement of more than 1 professional taxonomist, more specimens, more collections ... and more money - something in short supply in the taxonomic world.

 

[Melanochromis]

I wouldn't expect any change in status. Once a species is described according to ICZN rules, it's not easy to change. It does happen, but not often. It requires the agreement of more than 1 professional taxonomist, more specimens, more collections ... and more money - something in short supply in the taxonomic world.

I see. In my perception, Apistogramma taxonomy seems pretty far behind. One may wonder how long it will take for this genus to be fully sorted out.

 

[Mike Wise]

Dr. Sven O. Kullander spent much of the 1980s working with this genus. Dr. Uwe Römer has worked on some in the late 1990s/2000s (mostly nijsseni-group species). Presently there are about 85 species scientifically described, but there are probably more than 2X that number of distinct species that aren't scientifically described. The problem is that describing new species requires a lot of time and money - something that isn't in free supply in scientific circles. More of the limited time and money is going into genetics and phylogeny, for which species don't actually need scientific names.

 

[Melanochromis]

I definitely appreciate the works of the taxonomists you mentioned. And I hope they'll get more funding and other resources needed for the Apistogramma study.

Anyway, I went back to the shop and found out that the remaining A. pantalone were in bad conditions. They appeared sickly, swaying while swimming and the fins were clamped. I was surprised at this because less than a week ago when the fish arrived at this shop all of them were in a good shape for wild-caught fish. And the two fish I bought from that batch are still doing really great in my tank.

I noticed that in nearby tanks A. panduro and A. atahualpa also showed similar signs of sickness, but A. bitaeniata and Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis seemed to be pretty healthy. All of these fish arrived at the same time from the same source, supposedly in Peru.

Are these signs of problems caused by water? The tanks at the store are bare bottom and I think they change 20-30% of it daily with tap water (pH is around 7 for Bangkok tap). Does this mean pantalone (and panduro and atahualpa) are much more sensitive to water when compared to the other two species?

Cheers,

 

[Mike Wise]

To me it appears that either the sick fish already had the disease when brought in or that the tank in which they were placed had a disease in it before they were added.

 

[Melanochromis]

To me it appears that either the sick fish already had the disease when brought in or that the tank in which they were placed had a disease in it before they were added.

I guess that is possible. Hopefully it will not happen to my fish.

 

[Mike Wise]

I guess that is possible. Hopefully it will not happen to my fish.

Precisely the reason why I continually recommend that one always use a quarantine tank.