Apistogramma cacatuoides color genes

[RazzleFish]

Hi all!
I posted this on another site but after no responses I decided to join this site so I could ask all of the Apisto specialists!

So I am planning on getting a harem of Apistogramma cacatuoides hopefully soon, and was wondering about their colors since I would like to breed them for specific colors.

I had read somewhere that the red vs. orange color morphs are genes while the double vs. triple are co-dominant. So then I went on to read that due to cross-breeding all three color forms can occur in an "orange flash" spawn.

Based on that it leads me to believe this:

Wild coloration would be a dominant gene that is co-dominant with all other wild forms that have occurred via natural selection and isolation
(w) "Location Based"

"Orange Flash" is a dominant gene and is co-dominant with wild color
(O)

"Triple and Double Reds" are recessive but co-dominant when together (?)
(t) (d)
This is where things get mixed up. In another article I read that triple red was bred by choosing doubles that had some red in the fins. So that would mean that these are produced by "improved" forms of the gene (d). This makes more scene, right?

"White Gold" is a recessive semi-albino gene
(s)
Shouldn't this be recessive to "double and triple reds"?

Albino is a very rare, recessive to all (including "white gold"), full albino gene
(a)

Based on the above the genotypes would include:
(W,W) Wild color/ mix of wild colors based on location
(W,O) Wild color with more orange than true wild
(W,d) Wild color carrier of "double/ triple red"
(W,s) Wild color carrier of "white gold"
(W,a) Wild color carrier of albino
(O,O) Pure "Orange Flash"
(O,d) "Orange Flash" carrier of "double/ triple red"
(O,s) "Orange Flash" carrier of "white gold"
(O,a) "Orange Flash" carrier of albino
(d,d) Pure "Double/ Triple Red"
(d,s) "Double/ triple red" mix with "white gold"
(d,a) "Double/ triple red" carrier of albino
(s,s) Pure "White Gold"
(s,a) "White gold" carrier of albino
(a,a) Pure Albino

So do I have this right, or am I completely wrong?

Any help is greatly appreciated!!!!!

PS: Sorry for the long post!

 

[Mike Wise]

I've not heard of any genes that determine color dominance. Do you have a reference?

 

[ed seeley]

Modifier genes work on expression of all genes and that is what gives us the impression of dominance and recession in gene expression. In reality dominance is just a prevelant expression of genes under most conditions whereas many genes expression switches on and off in different conditions. What is called a gene is actually a whole series of coding sections that govern expression and then code for the different enzymes that then form the proteins from the amino acids strings that the different DNA sections produce. It's not just one bit of DNA that makes a colour.

So going back to the first post, co-dominance is just one kind of expression for genes and can be expressed in different ways such as piebald or a range of shades. For instance the difference between orange and red might (and this is speculation only) simply be the density of colour pigments. This could be caused by a range of different things from lower expression, thinner skin, less pigment cells or a number of other things. So breeding red with orange might give stronger orange or might produce a percentage red and a percentage of orange. You'd have to do the cross to find out or find someone who has and ask them.

You are trying to put a whole range of colour forms governed by a range of different genes into a list and I'm afraid the world simply doesn't work like that. You have listed a whole range of different forms governed by different genes or even pure chance (such as patterning on fins) and trying to say they are dominant against other totally different mutations. Dominance and reccesive in those nice simple punnet squares just doesn't work out except for some simple, single locus mutations.

 

[RazzleFish]

Mike, I don't have a single source that confirms or denies this. Most of it was based on subtle statements that I infered to mean the above.

Ed, that makes sence. So throwing out the extra colors how about I just get down to the colors I want vs, the ones I don't.

So I like both orange flash and white gold (AKA: gold). Does anyone know how a cross between the two would work? If they are just pigments then I would assume that I would get fry that look similar to the white gold but with more orange in them along with the ocellation that is usually present. But then again, you know how good I am at assuming things!:tongue:

My LFS has orange flash apistos but not white gold so I was thinking getting some female orange flash and orgering a male white gold. Would that produce at least some white gold fry?

Thank you for all your help!

 

[ed seeley]

The only way you will know for sure if no one else has done this is to try the cross and see what happens. Bear in mind your offspring may not conform to your expectations due to fatalities or a number of other things. One important thing is your plan is going to involve line breeding to get what you want out of it so you will need very good stock from a couple of different sources and plenty of tanks as you will need to grow a lot of fry on to have any chance of getting what you want.

I would expect that a cross between the two strains will give you fish of a range of different colour types, probably with no white golds in the first generation. Breeding two of the fry that look closest to orange flash together should then give you 25% fry with the paler colour, assuming it is recessive when bred with normal body coloured fish.

As I said though you will have to do the cross and follow up with the hard work to see what happens. Good luck.

 

[Apistomaster]

I can't address or speculate on how all the existing color forms of A. cactuoides are inherited. I can show the results I obtained from breeding a male Triple Red with a female White/Gold.
The White/Gold is a classic recessive trait. It would be interesting to know what color form the white/Gold mutation came from. I suspect from an Orange Flash. See some of of the over 170 I raised from the cross.

 

[DavidZ]

Very interesting

 

[TheHolding]

I have an orange flash male which I'm hoping will spawn with a wild female I bought, last week

I read it's good to mix colour bread cacatuoides with wild as it reduces defect and gene blood line to fry.

 

[steve1572]

I've bred a white gold female with a wild male all fry were standard colour bred one of the females from that spawn with an unrelated white gold male and got about 30% white gold which I put a male from back with a white gold female and they bred true to type all my white Golds have tale markings of double reds not Orange flash but if I put two standard colour together with the white gold gene in them I get atleast 30% Orange flash and never any white gold hope this helps